http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Tag: Copenhagen Nyhavn Bridges - Recent Posts en Tue, 19 May 2026 06:09:57 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354682 Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:44:46 +0000 gembo 354682@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Tesla have made electric cars work according to journalist Peter Curran driving e car LEJOG </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354676 Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:18:31 +0000 chdot 354676@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“Car manufacturers certainly do not imagine a future where fewer people want to own* cars”</p> <p>Hard to know what car manufacturers are actually anticipating. Don’t suppose many were ‘prepared’ for the rapid (in manufacturing cycle terms) phasing out of petrol/diesel. </p> <p>Question is how much they are lobbying/fighting for more of the same - ie urban areas <em>dominated</em> by ever larger and more expensive 4 wheelers. </p> <p>Any ‘alternative’ can’t be expected to rely on a few people dedicated/affluent enough to opt for simpler e-transport. </p> <p>Will an existing car manufacture (having spent a lot of money ‘understanding’ electric) produce something ’good’ <em>at a price</em> enabled by economies of scale?</p> <p>Will an existing bike manufacturer/distributor scale up to enable something reliable and ‘affordable’?</p> <p>Will Govs significantly alter the incentive/subsidy balance away from cars?</p> <p>Are we stuck ‘post’ Covid with more car use, LESS cycle infrastructure, etc?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354675 Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:40:45 +0000 neddie 354675@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Car manufacturers certainly do not imagine a future where fewer people want to own* cars.</p> <p>*Including pseudo-ownership, like PCP schemes, where you never actually own the car.</p> <p>The reason they create branded e-bikes is to get people in the door, a kind of loss-leader, like the supermarkets do. It's also partly advertising, "look we are inclusive on transport" and the e-bike is seen as a motoring accessory. All they really want to do is sell cars.</p> <p>It was the same with car-radios, when they were first introduced as standard. No one ever wanted or needed a car radio because cars were too noisy. Manufacturers didn't make any money out of them. But they put them in as standard, because they knew that creating a living room inside your car would drive dependency... And so it continues today, with people driving about with entire living rooms attached a.k.a Range Rovers, XC90s, X7s, etc. </p> <p>"You've got the car, now you've got all the bells and whistles too. Look how rich and high status you are. Living the dream..." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354671 Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:45:22 +0000 chdot 354671@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“Really, don't get why we would want "a major car manufacture produced a range of ebikes".”</p> <p>To repeat -</p> <p><blockquote>They have facilities, technologies, skilled workforce, advertising and distribution sorted.</p> <p>AND can imagine a future where fewer people want to buy/own cars.</blockquote></p> <p>I’m not saying it’s what I want to happen, but short of an ideal world where governments do sensible things and major capital intense industries think ‘planet and people’ before profits for shareholders, <em>perhaps</em> it’s a worthwhile option. </p> <p>So far the car industry’s involvement in electric bikes has been largely inept - possible even a deliberate sabotage attempt!</p> <p>‘People won’t want rubbish ebikes so we can just carry on as usual.’</p> <p>This is from a two year old article -</p> <p>“</p> <p>The industry has a poor track record with electric cars. General Motors’ EV1 appeared on American roads in 1996, the same year the auto industry successfully lobbied against a mandate from the California Air Resources Board to make more electric vehicles.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/08/business/electric-cars-audi-volkswagen-tesla/" rel="nofollow">https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/08/business/electric-cars-audi-volkswagen-tesla/</a></p> <p>As I also said -</p> <p><blockquote>Must be too busy lobbying for more of the same (subsidies and roads).</blockquote></p> <p>From the same article -</p> <p>“</p> <p>By the end of 2030, it wants four of every 10 cars it sells to be electric</p> <p>“</p> <p>Things change. </p> <p>YES, a lot depends on Gov policies and rules and subsidies. </p> <p>Can niche bike companies in Europe, expand to meet future demands?</p> <p>Do they want to?</p> <p>Quite likely that EU will help in ways that UK Govs are unlikely to. </p> <p>Will Pure/Halfords become a major manufacturer (not just importer)? Possible. </p> <p>Will it become UK manufacturer (again)? Seems unlikely, they used to make bikes in South Wales, but then Raleigh used to have a big factory in Nottingham. </p> <p>SO</p> <p>The future</p> <p>More of the same?</p> <p>A minority wanting an electric bike while normal people buy bigger and heavier cars. </p> <p>Or? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354670 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 23:36:17 +0000 crowriver 354670@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Was in Dundee today. After being reminded of the "bracing" fumes and noise from speeding vehicles tearing down the urban dual carriageway I was walking alongside, a short distance away outside the Dundee Science Centre I was pleased to note a row of shiny looking e-bikes available for hire. </p> <p>I didn't try one (you have to scan a QR code, download an app to your phone etc. and I don't have a contract phone, my smartphone is rather old, and so on) but reading the instructions it looks pretty straightforward for those with a recent phone and mobile data (which is most people except me). I presume the docking station is also the charging port, at least it looked like it from examining a station where no e-bike was present. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354669 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 23:20:45 +0000 crowriver 354669@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Laidback,</p> <p>"When I used to tell people I could tandem across town in less time than driving, people didn't care as they concluded it was sweaty, dangerous and a risk for our child.<br /> Now with e-bikes they just think it's dangerous and too expensive! "</p> <p>Drivers (people) will do pretty much anything to defend the choice they have made, so I'm not surprised by these "arguments". Basically cycling is too weird and non-normative for the majority of people. Of course we know that wasn't always the case. Changing the mindset though is going to be hard, especially with the (electric) car industry bulldozing everything before it... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354667 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 21:05:47 +0000 Dave 354667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think there's a significant section of society who aren't looking for exercise (for better or worse) but they are looking for environmental creds, and this is where the ebike can make deep inroads, for example on the nursery &amp; primary school run. You wear normal clothes, clearly high status vs many of the other parents, who may have high status cars but they are sort of in a "pity tier" now, one under the fashionable electric family bike.</p> <p>This is far from universal (many parents would fail to recognise the idea that they are in a status tier with a glass ceiling, under the parents whisking past with their kids on ebikes) but I think it's at least on a similar order of magnitude to the modal share for traditional commuting, if not higher - so there's a large potential market. Then ideally we start to make inroads on e.g. trip chaining. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354660 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:47:21 +0000 MediumDave 354660@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider thanks for the article. Interesting looking, now just have to lay my hands on the full text... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354658 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:54:28 +0000 LaidBack 354658@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Was debate at Eurobike about the danger of car manufacturers setting e-bike 'EU type standards' that would limit the variety of designs possible from smaller makes. So end result a badge engineered range from VW Group etc.<br /> If they had the chainguard, mudguards and lighting features of (say) Gazelle then that might be OK for some - especially if it substituted car sales for bikes. Car branded bikes tend to be in sports territory though - a good way to get their logo on something else. In fact most UK bikes are sold with way to few extras to make them usable for those not wanting clothes chewed up and oily. Yes I know dealers can add those but people like the idea of a certain amount of stuff as standard, not just reflectors and a bell.<br /> Was a post about the industry not using the concept of 'car replacement' in promotions. Car industry already has influence on some brands behind the scenes.<br /> In NL e-bikes are a threat to car sales. Here I still notice new e-bikes in private use. I don't count delivery riders as an e-bike is just tool for job.<br /> Bike Works gets around 70 bikes in a week and usually around 5 are e-bikes so far. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354657 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 14:34:30 +0000 Kim 354657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For some reason, I have been "invited" to comment on this thread, so here goes:</p> <p>The comments made in the video on Copenhagen bridges are unique to Colville-Andersen, others have made similar criticises, he is just showing the nowhere is perfect. </p> <p>Yes, Colville-Andersen does have a weird blind spot on e-bikes, although I know for a fact that he is perfectly happy to ride in the front of an e-assisted cargo bike. </p> <p>There seems to be a confusion between standard pedelecs (limited to 25 Km/h) s-pedelecs (limited to 45 Km/h) and North American pedelecs (which are legal up to 35 mph, depending on state). Mixing standard pedelecs and ordinary bikes isn't really a problem, the problem come when mixing s-pedelecs with other cycles in busy areas due to the potential speed differentials. The e-bikes are cheating is just bunkum (unless you are in an official race, in which case it is definitely cheating). There are perfectly valid reasons to use an e-bike over a conventional cycle for transport.</p> <p>Mr fimm's comment about 20% of the population of Austria owns an e-bike, while I haven't been to Austria since early January 2020 (for obvious reason), this doesn't come as any surprise to me. Having observed the changes in cycle use in Austria over the last 20 years, there has been a massive rise in the number of e-bikes there within the last five to six years.</p> <p>Really, don't get why we would want "a major car manufacture produced a range of ebikes". The existing e-bike producers are doing a great job of producing ebikes, which in Europe, are easily out selling e-cars. All the bike/trikes I have seen car manufacture brand as their own are pretty much rubbish. That includes the new VW cargo bike, which they are showing off at this year's IAA in Munch. The future of e-moblity isn't car shaped, so just let the automotive dinosaurs die...</p> <p>If we want to encourage further uptake of e-bikes, all that is needed is to divert the subsidies away from &gt;£30k e-cars into more affordable e-bikes and cargo bikes (or load cycles in the new jargon). Of course, this will hasten the end of the automotive dinosaurs, but that is no bad thing.</p> <p>Oh, and the biggest e-bike retailer in the UK is Pure, which is owned by Halfords. Also, of note is that the Halfords Group, earns over half of its annual profits from the cycling side of the business, even if six months worth of stock did get stuck on the Evergiven... ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354656 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:33:01 +0000 ejstubbs 354656@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot: <em>perhaps it’s time a major car manufacture produced a range of ebikes</em></p> <p>If you Google around a bit, it seems that a fair number of car manufacturers have, at various times in the not so distant past (mostly I think after 250kW EAPCs became legal), dabbled in e-bikes* to a greater or lesser extent. Even Vauxhall, which seems to specialise in manufacturing cars for (for want of a better description) Daily Express readers, appears to have dipped a very tentative toe in that water once upon a time. But it doesn't look like any of them did so with any great enthusiasm or energy - at least in the UK.</p> <p>I wonder also whether, if someone is genuinely considering getting a bike as well as or instead of a car, they are at all likely to head to their nearest car dealership. I'd hazard a guess that it's Halfords that picks up the biggest chunk of that "bike curious motorist" market. And there are probably too many folks who don't look upon their car as just a means of transport but regard it as a status symbol, the absence of which would significantly undermine their self-esteem (harking back perhaps to what Mrs Thatcher probably didn't actually say about a man taking the bus at the age of 30 being a failure).</p> <p>* <em>And even ordinary bikes. I'm pretty sure that when I bought my Skoda back in 2010 the brochure included bikes - but more as 'leisure accessories' for the car, rather than as vehicular transport in their own right. No idea how many they sold - and I certainly didn't need another one! In fact, it seems that there's a <a href="https://www.theskodashop.co.uk/products/bicycle-skoda-ebike">Skoda dealer in Lincoln that does actually sell a Skoda ebike</a>.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354655 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:50:46 +0000 chdot 354655@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“The EST loans are the starting point.“</p> <p>But do enough people know about them?</p> <p>On a ‘more of the same but different’ future, perhaps it’s time a major car manufacture produced a range of ebikes. </p> <p>They have facilities, technologies, skilled workforce, advertising and distribution sorted. </p> <p>AND can imagine a future where fewer people want to buy/own cars. </p> <p>Must be too busy lobbying for more of the same (subsidies and roads). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354654 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:40:43 +0000 MediumDave 354654@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The bike subscription schemes are quite interesting as a way of controlling costs (in the short term) or allowing try before you buy. Options seem to be limited unless you are in a big city. </p> <p>Rather similar to car leasing which is pretty tame stuff compared to the mad financialisation of car sales these days. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354653 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:35:28 +0000 LaidBack 354653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gembo <em>- However MCA acknowledges the e-bike allows for an extended commute. You can live better further away from the city cente. </em></p> <p>House prices are so high in centre of gentrified Copenhagen that many workers are probably biking further. This e-powered influx will annoy MCA. His pure pedal powered elite like to cycle from inner city wine bar to Nyhavn beer kellers on good Danish steel cykels!</p> <p>Many good points made about how people have got into whatever they use to cycle and why.<br /> Using logic to get people out of their cars doesn't always work. Time for many spent stationery in a comfortable car means time to listen to music, browse your phone etc. You also have the 'comfort' of knowing that everyone else does it too - so you get group re-enforcement. Know we do our best here to get some of that vibe for people on bikes. When I used to tell people I could tandem across town in less time than driving, people didn't care as they concluded it was sweaty, dangerous and a risk for our child.<br /> Now with e-bikes they just think it's dangerous and too expensive! 'Safe routes' is the question I'm asked most after sorting out funding from EST etc. Also bike security.</p> <p>Then on recumbent trikes &amp; tandem models the 'how will it fit in a car?' question. (Helios has been banned on some Fife trains according to someone). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354652 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 12:09:11 +0000 chdot 354652@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“If you look at what people are paying for car finance, modest ebikes are extremely affordable”</p> <p>Yeah, what individuals think is ‘expensive’ can be odd. </p> <p>£3 coffees, £10 pints, designer bags indistinguishable from counterfeits(?)</p> <p>Plenty £2k (non-motorised) bikes in the shops - and on the roads. </p> <p>It’s complicated. </p> <p>But Govs that don’t believe that only drivers vote AND want more roads would help. </p> <p>Likewise that traffic flow and economic development are interlinked, inevitably and beneficial. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354651 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:53:31 +0000 Arellcat 354651@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If you look at what people are paying for car finance, modest ebikes are extremely affordable.</em></p> <p>We also need to find a way to pull down the price of e-bikes, which are, for their size and tech, incredibly expensive compared with the smallest electric cars.</p> <p>When did car finance become the thing? I was brought up in a world when you only bought something if you could pay for it outright, houses excepted I suppose. But if people are inured to finance, then we have to popularise that approach for e-bike ownership. The EST loans are the starting point. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720&page=2#post-354650 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:50:16 +0000 acsimpson 354650@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's an interesting video. But watching it as a resident of Edinburgh it comes across as a parody. Any one of those bridges would be far better than pretty much anything in the city at the moment.</p> <p>I can't help comparing him to Miles Briggs recording a hypothetical video about the ring road. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354649 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:19:00 +0000 Dave 354649@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I used to have a 35 mile round trip commute which I did before ebikes were a thing, at the same time that my better half was doing a 20 mile round trip commute..</p> <p>I don't have a lot of patience for this debate, as people are saying the key thing we need is to increase the number of people who think any kind of cycling is normal/acceptable. If you look at what people are paying for car finance, modest ebikes are extremely affordable. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354648 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:15:44 +0000 MediumDave 354648@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@yodhrin yours is an interesting experience tale</p> <p>Some urbanists seem to prioritise transit and pedestrians above other active travel modes. So a conversion from transit/pedestrian to cycling isn't exactly a "win" from that perspective. Personally I belong to the "anything that's not a private car is good" school but given the cost of e-bikes I worry that some people are being sold something they don't really need. </p> <p>Having read a bit more of MCAs comments on e-bikes last night a large part of his beef appears to be specific to Denmark where there's an established low-speed utility cycling culture with design guidelines for infrastructure to suit. Allowing faster and heavier e-bikes (particularly s-pedelecs) to use the infrastructure apparently causes issues. How much those issues are perceptual and how much real is difficult to determine. Twitter of course reduces this to asinine soundbites of the "e-bikes bad/lazy" variety.</p> <p>I don't think the UK cycling culture is at a stage where we'd have that kind of problem. Quite the opposite; on my very occasional outings on an Urban Arrow the drivers appear to believe that I would make quite a large and expensive dent in their motor if they got up to their usual tricks. Which is just as well as here was no way I am willing to shoehorn the UA into any of the "cycle lanes" on my route. Trying the same routes on a Christiana trike or 8-freight might have been less pleasant. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354647 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:14:25 +0000 mcairney 354647@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think cost is still the major factor with e-bike popularity in the UK. Most non-cyclists consider anything beyond a couple of hundred pounds on a bike to be extortionate as their experience is based largely on what's available in Halfords. £2K+ is a large outlay especially on something you might not take to. "You could buy a car for that" would be the response from most.</p> <p>There's also an issue with how to securely store them, particularly in densely populated areas? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354646 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:11:34 +0000 Morningsider 354646@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Research from the Netherlands found that e-bikes do produce modal shift from car to e-bike (see <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920919303827?casa_token=JPX7V0A5oJQAAAAA:9qPliny_xI7WzsT4AGZJUjoYL1YjuI5UflzNq1i_xcNeo1o5OQYKnaiCU6dYLAzzBW0xUU8w">Modal shift implications of e-bike use in the Netherlands: Moving towards sustainability?</a>) and that existing cyclists who buy an e-bike actually double the distance they cycle (see <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136192092030609X">Do people who buy e-bikes cycle more?</a>). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354645 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:52:33 +0000 MediumDave 354645@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm in 2014 my gf and I took a wrong turn near Kitzbuhel and ended up starting the ride up the Kitzbuhler Horn. Our gas-pipe-adjacent hire bikes from Munich (or the engines for that matter) were not remotely up to this challenge! </p> <p>Before we bailed, various Austrian e-grannys and e-grandads cruised past us with blithe ease! </p> <p>Like Mr C said: "E's are good". I think he was talking about bikes?</p> <p>Anyway, definitely plenty of e-bikes in Austria even then, plus waymarked routes, usually a loop from a village taking in several bars/restaurants, rather than A to B. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354644 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:30:04 +0000 chdot 354644@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“a considered and holistic approach to urban living“</p> <p>Exactly what’s needed. </p> <p>I’m sure some of ‘us’ (including me, at times) don’t consider enough other factors/people enough. Some bike riders still under appreciate/disregard pedestrian needs/conditions. </p> <p>The basics remain - over provision/privilege for people who can afford/choose to drive. </p> <p>Need less traffic ‘better behaved’ drivers and much better provisions for people who walk and cycle (and those who can’t)</p> <p>“<a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20721#post-354642">There’s a flourishing of locally-based campaigns for cycling infrastructure and for wider car-reduced living, supporting walking, wheeling, local public transport and places no longer dominated by the demands of the car</a>.” </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354643 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:19:10 +0000 fimm 354643@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mr fimm read an article (I assume on an Austrian news website) that claimed the 20% <em>of the population</em> of Austria owns an e-bike. Not 20% of people in Austria who own a bike own an e-bike, but 20% <em>of the total population</em>. He checked this very carefully because he found it surprising.</p> <p>His mother has an e-bike, and was a relatively early adopter - there's a really steep hill from his parents' house up to the village and she could no longer get up it. So he's a fan in that context; but he will rant about (apparently) fit men on e-mountainbikes riding up things that they appear perfectly capable of getting up without the assistance. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354641 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0000 Yodhrin 354641@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@MediumDave Well to be fair, it didn't so much convert me from a pedestrian to an e-cyclist as it did convert me from a couch potato to an e-cyclist. For example, I didn't have a car to offset, but I now do most of my shopping by bike &amp; trailer rather than having it delivered.</p> <p>The issue with "MCA-aligned urbanists" is they seem to have a pretty narrow perspective - not having a car doesn't mean you don't do things that cause pollution which having an ebike allows you to avoid; a "proper" pedestrian &gt; ebike conversion may not be "optimal", but plenty of mostly-pedestrians are as hostile towards cycling and cycle infrastructure as the most I Can't Believe It's Not Cabbie-tier car drivers, so getting them riding around can make them allies in making cities more liveable generally; there's the public health angle to be considered as well in that while an ebike might not do you quite as much good as a "proper" bicycle mile-for-mile, it lets you tackle trips you'd have previously either avoided or done by bus/taxi/rideshare, and I'd wager cycling out to for eg Hermiston Gait to pick up some bits for a project from B&amp;Q will be more exercise than the ~2 minutes of walking required to move between bus stops to take that same journey the way I would have before(had I not just ordered online and never set foot outside at all).</p> <p>I've even seen some people arguing - though I can't speak to how true it is - that ebikes are more energy efficient than regular bikes once you consider what's necessary to create the calories a human inefficiently burns to drive it.</p> <p>My point being, in the end, they seem more like they want to preserve a sense of superiority they feel than they actually are about a considered and holistic approach to urban living. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354640 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:05:48 +0000 crowriver 354640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD, "He seems to have concluded that e-bikes are the new lycra louts."</p> <p>I rather thought he was inferring that e-bikes are the new Volvo estate (or whatever the more recent middle class totemic vehicle is).</p> <p>Anecdotally this is somewhat corroborated by an FB group I subscribe to which is about family cycling and transporting kids on two wheels. There are a few hardy souls persevering with child seats, tandems, etc. under their own steam. However many of the posts are from folk in London or the south east of England who own several grand's worth of e-assist cargo bikes/trikes made by Dutch or Danish manufacturers. Which I think is great, but there is a "my other Volvo is a bakfiets" vibe about the whole thing. As with cars, there's the issue of where to park/store these large cycles. Without communal covered bike storage on every street then this type of transport is the preserve of those with gardens or garages. Of course, it's "socially acceptable" (not to me but I'm not typical) and relatively secure to store your motor vehicle directly on the street, but it would take a brave person to do that with a cargo bike/trike...</p> <p>So while MCA was a bit too abrasive, I kinda see his point. Even though I am very much in favour of parents doing the nursery/primary school run with a cargo bike instead of a car, yes also with e-assist - indeed that's one of the best uses I can think of for the tech. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354639 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:56:45 +0000 MediumDave 354639@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The UK bike market is quite "sports" obsessed which is annoying for those of us who want practical non-sporting equipment (be that an ebike or components that became "obsolete" 20 years ago). This might help to explain the lower sales of e-bikes here. </p> <p>I'd also be quite interested in use (rather than sale) statistics for all those ebikes - I see more than I used to around Edinburgh but they're not a common sight even now. Does anyone have such statistics? Couldn't find any with a cursory google. </p> <p>Similarly whether e-bikes tend to convert pedestrians-&gt;e-cyclists (the Yodhrin pathway), cyclists-&gt;e-cyclists (such as older riders looking for a boost) or motorists-&gt;e-cyclists. I suspect MCA-aligned urbanists would only be interested in promoting the latter. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354638 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:47:49 +0000 SRD 354638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>slightly off topic... </p> <p>Last September, my work building implemented a one way system. in particular, one staircase was up and one was down. It was inconvenient and made me walk a lot further lugging heavy panniers etc. BUt after a year I got so routinised that even though they've removed the one way system, I still automatically go that way, even though it is longer and inconvenient.</p> <p>Made me think about how difficult it is to change travel routes, modes etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354637 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:46:25 +0000 Yodhrin 354637@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot Regarding the observation - that just seemed to be the consensus to me finding various youtubers, campaigners etc around "utility" bicycling &amp; urbanism, the idea that most people aren't really "ists" of any sort, they just want to get where they're going and will use whatever works to do that. It seems a concept that's well bedded-in in terms of infrastructure/perceived safety, and the logic naturally extends to concerns like "But I can't carry all the stuff/weight I want/need to on a bicycle", "But I don't work in a fancy office with showers and changing rooms", "But I can't fit my wee kids on a bicycle", "But I'm not fit enough", and yes, "But it's too hilly where I live" since ebikes or ecargos address those concerns, and the more you can address the reasons people think a bike can't meet their needs the more likely they are to leave the car at home.</p> <p>Which leads into why I decided I wanted an ebike - it addresses those concerns for me(not fit enough to use a regular bike without arriving a sweaty mess, transporting stuff - with the aid of a nice wee trailer), and so I found it easier to justify buying a bike again(last attempt was 15 years ago at a much fitter 20 years old, and didn't go anywhere as I almost immediately took a header over the bars due to a pothole that totalled the bike), because it wouldn't just be a "toy" for exercise but also a tool that I could use right away at pretty much its full potential.</p> <p>Even then it was only the Energy Savings Trust loan scheme that made it practical to buy one, and it was pure luck I ran across someone talking about that on twitter, so that's a concern I think definitely needs to be addressed to make them more accessible to more people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20720#post-354636 Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:02:45 +0000 chdot 354636@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“And so now I have a better understanding of and a vested interest in seeing improved infrastructure, better traffic laws and enforcement, and ended up interested in urbanism in a way I wasn't before“</p> <p>Great to read (and previous bit). </p> <p>How did you come think you wanted an electric bike?</p> <p>“they're about making the bicycle attractive to people with no particular attachment to any form of travel”</p> <p>This is an interesting observation. I’m not sure there is any uniform thinking about it in the bicycle industry. To a large extent it will just be a new product with the prospect of new markets/consumers. The bonus of higher prices can mean more profits. </p> <p>There’s certainly no common understanding among ‘cyclists’ (let’s not define that too closely…) or campaigners (hence views in this thread!). </p> <p>‘Electric bikes is cheating’ is one element of the problem about why more people don’t ride electric bikes. Though the craze for electric scooters shows there’s no ‘purity’ about getting about using muscles!</p> <p>DON’T FORGET: “Edinburgh’s too hilly for cycling”. </p> <p>EDINBURGH should have more electric bikes than anywhere else. </p> <p>It’s a UK problem. The UK is undoubtedly still obsessed with “<a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_for_Prosperity">the great car economy</a>” a part of which is the ‘need’ for infrastructure (more/upgraded roads and ‘parking outside my house’). </p> <p>SO more encouragement for electric bikes is needed - AND UK manufacturing. </p> <p>Not forgetting -</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/8672e72e-2c1e-428a-a158-b9186222841b">However, the adoption of e-bikes in the UK still trails far behind European peers with electrically assisted models making up 5 per cent of total bike sales in the country in 2020 versus closer to half in Germany and the Netherlands.<br /> </a></p> <p>“</p> <p>All about hills then…</p> <p>That said, there are undoubtedly issues about batteries and mining and recycling. INSIGNIFICANT compared with cars. Motor manufacturers are (probably) taking ‘the circular economy’ seriously - and continuing the success of making Govs pay for infrastructure for driving… </p>