CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Tag: lothian buses 20mph

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Tag: lothian buses 20mph - Recent Posts http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Tag: lothian buses 20mph - Recent Posts en Tue, 14 Jul 2026 08:58:53 +0000 chdot on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97989 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:46:31 +0000 chdot 97989@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Ragne Low (@RagneLow) 24/01/2013 21:27 @the20effect Public Event in Edinburgh 6 Feb - <a href="https://2020climateevents.eventbrite.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">https://2020climateevents.eventbrite.co.uk/</a> - on speed limits. Maybe of interest? " wangi on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97987 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:38:37 +0000 wangi 97987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://lothianbuses.com/about-us/our-company/freedom-of-information" rel="nofollow">http://lothianbuses.com/about-us/our-company/freedom-of-information</a> "As Lothian Buses plc is owned entirely by public authorities, we’re subject to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002" fimm on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97974 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:07:28 +0000 fimm 97974@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I have a fancy GPS-doofer - I'll try and remember to have a play with it the next time I take the bus (which I don't do all that often...) kaputnik on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97933 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:54:30 +0000 kaputnik 97933@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ simply by looking at the timetable. In the depths of a previous post, I did this for a few Southside Lothian bus routes and calculated that the average speed would be hardly impacted by a 20mph limit. crowriver on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97929 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:26:12 +0000 crowriver 97929@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Snowy, yes but the point is that LB argues its drivers sometimes need to go at 30mph in order to keep to the timetable. Dave's tracking appears to largely disprove that point. Snowy on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97926 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:17:47 +0000 Snowy 97926@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Cheers Kaputnik, good research! FOI to CEC - that's a v interesting idea. I shall investigate. It struck me that we already can work out the average speed on a bus route, or specific section of a route, simply by looking at the timetable. Timetables already include some wiggle-room for drivers to keep on target. So, intuitively it doesn't feel like the loss of a few seconds here or there would take them over the threshold where they'd have to change any timetables, let alone need an extra vehicle on a route. kaputnik on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97922 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:26:36 +0000 kaputnik 97922@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I assume you can't do an FOI request on Lothian Buses, as the FOI act only covers "public bodies over which the Scottish Parliament has jurisdiction" and LB is a PLC company (despite the shareholding being council-held). However bus-tracker itself is a CEC:LB joint initiative, so you might be able to extract data out of them through the CEC route. crowriver on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97919 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:17:11 +0000 crowriver 97919@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Or they may read this and say "uh oh, delete the backups before someone uses our own data to debunk our knee-jerk vested-interests-driven agenda" FOI request to the council/Lothian Buses? "Please release this GPS data into the public domain so we can analyse average bus speeds"? Or even "Please give figures on average bus speeds in Edinburgh, listed by service number"? chdot on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97911 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:48:14 +0000 chdot 97911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Perhaps what's needed to clear bus routes (of cars) - <img src="http://lothianbuses.com/assets/LB-winter-van.jpg"> <a href="http://lothianbuses.com/our-community/article/let-us-do-the-driving-this-winter" rel="nofollow">http://lothianbuses.com/our-community/article/let-us-do-the-driving-this-winter</a> steveo on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97909 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:33:43 +0000 steveo 97909@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ In fact, last summer Cllr Eric Barry helped me I had to chuckle at that. Good analysis Dave, I think I might have a track for the 22 at "rush hour" from a while back if its of any use. lionfish on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97906 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:25:39 +0000 lionfish 97906@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @kaputnik: oooh interesting... is it encrypted? :) (how well? - just out of interest??!) :D kaputnik on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97905 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:20:08 +0000 kaputnik 97905@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I wonder what sort of transponders the buses use for their 'bus tracker' system. Apparently it is the "AVL" (Automatic Vehicle Location) system by a company called Ineo Systrans. It is indeed a GPS-based system. It communicates back to Lothian Buses using a "private trunked data radio for AVL and fleet management". So there you go. chdot on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97904 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:19:43 +0000 chdot 97904@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "the idea that it would require extra buses or drivers doesn't seem to add up" The assumption is that to maintain current service with slowed down buses would require more buses. BUT And there are a lot of buts - As buses hardly ever go above 20 - except on main roads where there aren't as many stops (and will probably remain 30 anyway) this suggestion is questionable. 20mph zones may well encourage more people to travel by bus - car journeys will be slightly slower and roads (eg Leith Walk) might feel less like race tracks (might even be fewer cars) and so feel easier/safer to cross. However bus journey times are affected by a lot more than maximum speed limits - More people getting on (which presumably they want) - especially if they don't have Oyster type cards... Bus waiting to get stops because there is another bus in front. Too much traffic (generally). <strike>Bicycles stuck in tram tracks.</strike> Inappropriately parked cars (often quite legally near difficult bends for instance). In short LB should actually WELCOME 20mph zones and all other measures that might make Edinburgh a much less car dominated city - and much friendlier to pedestrians and bus passengers. lionfish on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97903 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:18:34 +0000 lionfish 97903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Dave: Oops I forgot to say how impressed I am with your work :) - also the fact that you got around to doing it! Also I wasn't sure how much bus numbers vary in/out of rush hour - but yep, that needs taking into account too. I wonder why they were /really/ against the 20mph speed limit. I have suspicions that it might be someone in the organisation who doesn't like them on principle?? Or is that a bit far-fetched? @kaputnik: Interesting point. I think that, in general, reducing NOx air pollution in our cities is a good idea though :) So the final problem is the police - how to get them on-side? Help with voluntary speed-monitoring? Also do people feel physical speed-control measures should be introduced on main roads? Snowy on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97901 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:11:16 +0000 Snowy 97901@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Can I just also say that Dave, that's an excellent piece of analysis. I wonder what sort of transponders the buses use for their 'bus tracker' system. It strikes me that if they use GPS at all, they may already have the required method of data collection installed on the buses - and are thus potentially already sitting on the goldmine of information which would allow a holistic and thorough analysis of a complete data set. Or they may read this and say "uh oh, delete the backups before someone uses our own data to debunk our knee-jerk vested-interests-driven agenda" DaveC on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97899 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:08:28 +0000 DaveC 97899@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If I'm travelling on Stagecoach in my home town and I suspect they are speeding, I get the GPS out and then send in a twitter complaint to them. They have taken seriously all my speeding and Red Light jumping complaints. kaputnik on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97897 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:01:52 +0000 kaputnik 97897@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ PS: How could it scrub CO2 from the exhaust?! (where would it all go??)... That was my point exactly! It turned out that their web and marketing people had got totally the wrong end of the stick about what a NOX-scrubber does and had published all this bumph about reductions in carbon emissions. Their Director of Environment was good enought o write me a detailed reply and get the promotional stuff sorted out. He was also honest enough to admit that the NOX-scrubbing actually reduces vehicle efficiency so actually increases carbon emissions of the bus! (But pointed to relevant EU legislation that enforces this NOX-reducing technology on bus engines) Dave on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97896 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:01:51 +0000 Dave 97896@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ [edit 2: One thing: Most people would be GPSing during rush-hour when the 20mph would have least effect - this confound might be pointed at by the bus companies, so we might have to re-weight the analysis to sample the day evenly. If that makes sense?] It does make sense, but also the majority of bus journeys are in rush hour too (compare a 10 minute service with a half hourly or hourly Sunday service). That's not to say that we shouldn't sample buses outside of peak times (at 7pm neither of my buses were significantly hindered by traffic) Dave on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97895 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:59:52 +0000 Dave 97895@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It would be interesting to know what Lothian Buses make of it. I mean, 20mph zones might make the buses significantly more attractive relative to driving (and certainly wouldn't damage their appeal) while on the surface of it, the idea that it would require extra buses or drivers doesn't seem to add up. However, they might know something I don't - at the end of the day, they are running a bus company and I'm not. Please feel free to tweet... lionfish on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97893 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:52:55 +0000 lionfish 97893@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ This is interesting - at the SPOKES planning meeting there was talk of 20mph areas and the fact that the bus companies were one of the major barriers to its extension onto main roads. This was exactly the thing I was thinking of doing (getting people to GPS the route). Maybe we could get lots of people on here to GPS their bus journeys? Send them over to you/me... [edit: you - as you've got the code/analysis ready :] [edit 2: One thing: Most people would be GPSing during rush-hour when the 20mph would have least effect - this confound might be pointed at by the bus companies, so we might have to re-weight the analysis to sample the day evenly. If that makes sense?] PS: How could it scrub CO2 from the exhaust?! (where would it all go??)... kaputnik on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97889 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:46:41 +0000 kaputnik 97889@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ DAve, that's an excellent, well-thought through, reasoned and written piece. I'd seriously consider sending it to Lothian Buses for comment, they've always been good at getting back to me on things (even as far as admitting their mistakes* and making relevant corrections) * such as that a NOX-reducing bus does not scrub CO2 out the exhaust. SRD on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97882 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:24:21 +0000 SRD 97882@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ brilliant dave. i've tweeted it. didn't tag lothian buses though. should I? Dave on "Another 20mph bus test" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9332#post-97859 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:25:33 +0000 Dave 97859@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It's been a while since I had a good Edinburgh gurn in the "sociopolitics" section of my blog, and by coincidence I had the opportunity to add a Leith-based bus service to my collection this evening. Needless to say, no. 7 didn't go much faster than south central's no. 38 (even though it was ~7pm and traffic was very light). I recycled a little content written nearer the time to provide some South-Central backstory: <a href="http://mccraw.co.uk/lothian-buses-20mph-limit/" rel="nofollow">http://mccraw.co.uk/lothian-buses-20mph-limit/</a> 20mph on Leith Walk a pipe dream's pipe dream, of course...