http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: judge-cites-lack-of-bike-helmet-as-contributory-factor-in-death-crash/ en Mon, 18 May 2026 05:05:52 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110376 Mon, 13 May 2013 15:55:08 +0000 bdellar 110376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I wear hi-vis in winter, and my helmet has hi-vis on it too. My wife wouldn't let me ride at night on busy roads without it! But in Summer, I cycle with just normal clothes. As and when we get safe cycle paths, I'll give up the hi-vis all year round :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110354 Mon, 13 May 2013 13:43:21 +0000 cc 110354@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Gloves aren't cycling gear, they're survival gear! Other than that I wear the same cycling as I do walking. I only cycle a couple of miles though, and slowly on low stress roads; if you commute from Fife or prefer to do righteous battle on busy car-strangled routes I'm sure you'd want different clothes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110324 Mon, 13 May 2013 12:34:22 +0000 neddie 110324@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Like SRD, I've decided to ditch "all unnecessary cycling clobber" (helmet, eye-protection, gloves, buff and hi-viz jacket)...</p> <p>It's very liberating. But you do feel weird walking out the door like you've forgotten something.</p> <p>Today I relented and wore my hi-viz (&amp; waterproof) jacket, and buff (coz I'm a bit bald), but my hands froze.</p> <p>I'm starting to think there's a good reason for wearing all the 'clobber' when under Scottish weather. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110319 Mon, 13 May 2013 12:16:26 +0000 lionfish 110319@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Done. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110285 Mon, 13 May 2013 09:40:42 +0000 SRD 110285@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>wow. CTC is reporting that over 2500 people have written to complain about the sentence. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110156 Fri, 10 May 2013 18:23:48 +0000 Tulyar 110156@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Given that POP is barely a week away, would it be an option to have a number of mobile distribution points carrying copies of the letter and URL to download the template for your own version, since this would appear to be a major element in the objectives for POP - to get sentencing placing the harm to the person inflicted by someone using a motor vehicle on a parity with similar harm committed by someone using other means. I wonder if the law would have taken the same stance on someone who had 'accidentally' shot two people when out with the guns</p> <p>It can also spell out the considerable difference in the meanings of the words liability and blame which clearly are beyond the comprehension of some people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110128 Fri, 10 May 2013 15:08:31 +0000 SRD 110128@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I sent in a letter early this week, and haven't worn my helmet since.</p> <p>Main reason I wear a helmet is so that a judge can't say something like that when i get squashed. </p> <p>But I resent doing something mainly to respond to hypothetical stupid judge. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110127 Fri, 10 May 2013 15:06:02 +0000 Charterhall 110127@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Letter sent. I thought about putting in my own words but the draft provided said all I wanted to say and in considerably more diplomatic language than I would have managed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-110121 Fri, 10 May 2013 14:46:51 +0000 Bhachgen 110121@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>CTC have put up an online form which can be used to prepopulate a standard letter, which you can then edit before sending: <a href="http://engagement.ctc.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1689&amp;ea.campaign.id=20506&amp;ea.tracking.id=AF-twit" rel="nofollow">http://engagement.ctc.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1689&amp;ea.campaign.id=20506&amp;ea.tracking.id=AF-twit</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-109946 Wed, 08 May 2013 20:24:53 +0000 sallyhinch 109946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you wish to make representations about this (both the length of the ban and the remarks made by the judge) you can do so by emailing ps_copfs AT scotland.gsi.gov.uk by Friday. No idea how much weight will be put on submissions from members of the public, but it is unlikely to do any harm. As I know there are lots of clever lawyers on here, I'm sure you can come up with some good sound legal arguments as to why this should be reviewed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096&page=2#post-109656 Sun, 05 May 2013 17:26:43 +0000 neddie 109656@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ok uberuce, message received... :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109653 Sun, 05 May 2013 13:19:22 +0000 le_soigneur 109653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It does seem that Sherriff Scott believes a licence is for life, not just for Christmas. </p> <p>What would you have to do to lose your licence? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109646 Sun, 05 May 2013 09:47:09 +0000 Claggy Cog 109646@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Quote from the EEN </p> <p>"McCourt may be allowed to drive again but we sincerely hope he does not decide to renew his 
licence".</p> <p>Amen to that.</p> <p>Of course, he will renew his licence, can you imagine this man getting a bus once his ban is over. It is going to hurt him for the next five years. In the first case he was driving without a licence or insurance and he was aged 22, so in the interim he must have sat a test, in spite of the fact that he had already killed someone on the road.</p> <p>Let's hope that the sentence is looked at and overturned and that he is banned for life. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109635 Sat, 04 May 2013 23:03:43 +0000 Smudge 109635@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>+1<br /> I'm all for a helmet smashing protest, however I also think it should be entirely separate from the POP ride. (As in on a different day)</p> <p>I also hope that everyone will consider writing to press and politicians over the appalling facts around the judgement discussed in the thread above. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109633 Sat, 04 May 2013 22:20:15 +0000 Uberuce 109633@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think a mass helmet smashing is a spiffing idea, but unless you have an intense personal dislike of me(I'm head marshal of POP2 and my name is on legally binding things) I would prefer, to put it mildly, that this protest wasn't part of ours. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109631 Sat, 04 May 2013 21:34:09 +0000 neddie 109631@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@stiltskin</p> <p>Excellent idea to protest about helmets within POP.</p> <p>Can you imagine 1000s of people smashing up their helmets outside the Sheriff's office?</p> <p>Everyone bring a hammer and a helmet - job done! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109627 Sat, 04 May 2013 20:44:54 +0000 crowriver 109627@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>To be fair, the EEN have been covering the trial throughout April. The sheer injustice of what has happened clearly outraged many, including the editor of the paper. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109624 Sat, 04 May 2013 19:51:10 +0000 Nelly 109624@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was stunned to see the EEN front page in a shop earlier - they have printed exactly what I think - on the front page - the leader article crowriver posted is, again very strongly supportive - and does not echo the judges nonsense re helmets.</p> <p>Its like they have been hacked by a cyclist.</p> <p>Or is this evidence of a positive editorial stance change? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109606 Sat, 04 May 2013 15:20:06 +0000 crowriver 109606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Evening News Editorial Leader: ‘Five-year ban doesn’t feel like justice’</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/leader-five-year-ban-doesn-t-feel-like-justice-1-2920488" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/leader-five-year-ban-doesn-t-feel-like-justice-1-2920488</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109605 Sat, 04 May 2013 15:19:56 +0000 minus six 109605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://cyclingfront.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/betrayed-by-legal-system.html">Betrayed by a Legal System</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109604 Sat, 04 May 2013 15:05:37 +0000 crowriver 109604@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@slowcoach, thanks. That was the link I was referring to. So, in effect, Scottish courts are following the guidance used in England &amp; Wales. Presumably because they haven't bothered to set up a Scottish Senstencing Council as yet? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109603 Sat, 04 May 2013 15:04:06 +0000 chdot 109603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJaETmzCIAA6pZj.jpg"><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJaETmzCIAA6pZj.jpg"></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109601 Sat, 04 May 2013 13:41:45 +0000 SRD 109601@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Daughter of cyclist Audrey Fyfe calls for tougher sentences</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-22410799" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-22410799</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109600 Sat, 04 May 2013 13:00:17 +0000 Coxy 109600@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Comments are allowed. MUST NOT LOOK......... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109598 Sat, 04 May 2013 12:08:41 +0000 chdot 109598@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/fury-at-sheriff-s-helmet-claim-in-cyclist-death-case-1-2920362" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/fury-at-sheriff-s-helmet-claim-in-cyclist-death-case-1-2920362</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109596 Sat, 04 May 2013 10:44:28 +0000 slowcoach 109596@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From an APPEAL COURT, HIGH COURT OF JUSTICIARY case earlier this year: "In her report to this court, the sentencing judge explains that in selecting the starting point for the sentence of imprisonment on charge (2) she had regard to the Definitive Guideline entitled "Causing Death by Driving" issued by the Sentencing Guidelines Council in England and Wales. The contents of the Definitive Guideline are commonly taken into account by judges when imposing sentence in road traffic cases in Scotland. Such reliance on the Definitive Guideline by sentencing judges has been approved by this court."<br /> <a href="http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2013HCJAC12A.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2013HCJAC12A.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109590 Sat, 04 May 2013 08:51:09 +0000 crowriver 109590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC, I thought that too, and yet I've seen public statements by Scottish judges saying they refer to sentencing guidelines from the sentencing council (can't find the link just now). It appears the Scottish sentencing council hasn't yet been set up (despite legislation in 2010 allowing this), or if it has it must operate under conditions of extreme secrecy. </p> <p>The legislation those guidelines I posted apply to is from 1988, so perhaps they do cover Scotland? </p> <p>In this case, Sheriff James Scott claimed he was "<a href="http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/motorist-who-caused-death-of-cyclists-spared-jail-1-2919275">following guidelines laid down by the Criminal Court of Appeal</a>".</p> <p>Anyone know which guidelines he is referring to? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109584 Fri, 03 May 2013 23:39:45 +0000 Dave 109584@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My thoughts: <a href="http://mccraw.co.uk/gary-mccourt-double-killer-edinburgh-cyclists/" rel="nofollow">http://mccraw.co.uk/gary-mccourt-double-killer-edinburgh-cyclists/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109583 Fri, 03 May 2013 23:26:00 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 109583@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver - those sentencing guidelines are for English courts. Different system up here (ref. early on to CPS rather than PF; and huge swathes of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 don't apply in Scotland). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10096#post-109581 Fri, 03 May 2013 22:19:28 +0000 chdot 109581@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://andrewburns.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/astounding-comments-no-basis-in-fact.html" rel="nofollow">http://andrewburns.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/astounding-comments-no-basis-in-fact.html</a> </p>