http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Slow down or else! Sustrans warns cyclists" en Mon, 18 May 2026 22:20:15 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110732 Thu, 16 May 2013 15:13:15 +0000 tammytroot 110732@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Min The motorbike neds are being more than a nuisance and have taken to bombing through the grounds of the RIE as well. Not good when patients with limited mobility are around. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110724 Thu, 16 May 2013 14:32:12 +0000 neddie 110724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>design a chicane by using a rough or rocky surface</em></p> <p>Sorry, forget that idea. Full sus 29ers would just sail over it full speed anyway </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110723 Thu, 16 May 2013 14:25:31 +0000 kaputnik 110723@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>but it doesn't because a small number of people will try to beat the system, thereby spoiling it for everyone else.<br /> </em></p> <p>Or a large number of people if you take the bit of road at Edinburgh Park station. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110721 Thu, 16 May 2013 14:10:44 +0000 Min 110721@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The scene in Craigmillar Castle Park this lunchtime.</p> <p>Edit - didn't really work. I'll try and upload again later. It three neds on two motorbikes anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110719 Thu, 16 May 2013 13:32:44 +0000 Arellcat 110719@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>You could design a chicane by using a rough or rocky surface as the 'barrier'. No one will want to wreck their wheels cycling over the rocks, yet a trailer could still pass over them, albeit slowly.</em></p> <p>But that's the problem: it's too easy to assume that all non-motorised vehicles are two dimensional.</p> <p>Elsewhere recently was discussion about <em>why</em> such barriers are put in place. It stems from the desire to prevent motorised access—cars, motorbikes, mopeds and the like—but they are almost always designed around the notional 2-D cyclist. You end up with the triangular barriers so beloved of Sustrans that even bicycles have trouble getting their handlebars through. Yet the Roseburn path access from Wester Coates Terrace (for example) has no barriers at all! For that reason it happens to be the only access point at the south end of the path for this velonaut.</p> <p>Ideally a "no motor vehicles" sign ought to achieve the same effect as gates and barriers, but it doesn't because a small number of people will try to beat the system, thereby spoiling it for everyone else. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110714 Thu, 16 May 2013 13:17:49 +0000 slowcoach 110714@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The big problem with relying on designing streets to discourage speeding and other bad driving is that most of our streets won't be designed - they've already been built. Similarly using new design or traffic calming type measures to discourage bad cycling annoying or endangering pedestrians would mean going a lot of work to change facilities that already there. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110702 Thu, 16 May 2013 12:48:12 +0000 neddie 110702@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You could design a chicane by using a rough or rocky surface as the 'barrier'. No one will want to wreck their wheels cycling over the rocks, yet a trailer could still pass over them, albeit slowly. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110687 Thu, 16 May 2013 11:10:01 +0000 lionfish 110687@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@bdellar - good point about designing-in. I sketched out at the 'consultation' for Leith Walk how I thought maybe the road could 'weave' from side to side. This would give space for bus stops and parking on each side of the road in turn - if that makes sense? :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110686 Thu, 16 May 2013 11:09:00 +0000 kaputnik 110686@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you look at a lot of 1980s and later housing estates, they avoid "traditional" street design and have a pretty organic, branching structure with lots of wiggly roads and only one entrance/exit to the estate. I was told that the idea was that it prevents the housing being used as a rat run and naturally slows speeds down. I think they also found that it pushed house prices up as it seemed more "exclusive" than a traditional row design.</p> <p>Complete pest to cycle through though! (I'm thinking the likes of the NCN around Gilberstoun, Mucklets, Musselburgh) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110684 Thu, 16 May 2013 11:03:14 +0000 bdellar 110684@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmmm. I like the idea of designing enforcing limits. For example, I saw city streets in Germany last week that deliberately twisted and were narrow in order to slow traffic down. Yes, you could make the road straight and wide, and then use cameras or officers to enforce the speed limit, but designing in lower speeds is just more efficient, and, well, nicer.</p> <p>London Road past Meadowbank is a good example of the other style. I've seen cars do 50 or faster up there. The road is wide, straight, and its easy to floor it. </p> <p>So I like the idea of well designed structures enforcing behaviour. </p> <p>Having said that, barriers on paths which are unusable are no good. Witness the ones outside the primary school on Leith Links - they're horrible to get through with panniers, so everyone goes round them. If they were easier to use and were further apart, people would slow down and use them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110680 Thu, 16 May 2013 10:52:47 +0000 Coxy 110680@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>remove double-post </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110679 Thu, 16 May 2013 10:49:09 +0000 kaputnik 110679@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Maybe we should compile a list of "anti-disability" barriers and see if we can get them improved?<br /> </em></p> <p>End of Balgreen / Corstorphine path at Paddockholm.<br /> Cut-through on the H2EP route betwixt Broomhall and Ladywell. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110677 Thu, 16 May 2013 10:47:24 +0000 Coxy 110677@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a pretty tight chicane at the Portobello end of the bridge over the East Coast railway line and the Harry Lauder bypass. Although, I think it's to stop people missing the sharp left and cycling/tumbling down the steps. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110673 Thu, 16 May 2013 10:32:26 +0000 tammytroot 110673@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Maybe we should compile a list of "anti-disability" barriers and see if we can get them improved?<br /> The ones at the ends of the bridge at the mouth of the Esk. The North end of Hope Lane. And beside the travellers camp on the innocent are just a few on my commute that I would not like to negotiate in a motability scooter or non-standard bike. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110672 Thu, 16 May 2013 10:28:06 +0000 Min 110672@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, the canal ones in town are fine. I do wonder if they cause conflict with peds and cyclists trying to get through at the same time a la drivers trying to race through a pinch point at the same time as a cyclist. If this is the case, then they are still not the answer IMO. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110667 Thu, 16 May 2013 09:59:12 +0000 SRD 110667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can do all the chicanes on the canal within Edinburgh with tandem and trailer. </p> <p>Further out, there are some dodgy ones. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110663 Thu, 16 May 2013 09:44:53 +0000 Min 110663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I agree with Dave. So many of these chicanes are so awful that even having panniers on your almost-acceptable non-deviant bike prohibits getting through unless you are strong enough to lift the whole lot or want to take the panniers off and back on again or risks trashing your panniers.</p> <p>Speed bumps are not a problem at all for me when driving as I am already going at 20mph or less anyway.</p> <p><em> All done because a few (and yes, it's a few) break the speed limit to such an extent that it's necessary."</em></p> <p>Well actually it's not really only a few. <a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/police-say-40-of-drivers-ignoring-new-20mph-speed-limit-1-2683481">The new 20mph zone</a> has 40% of drivers breaking the limit and it is only that low because the police are very generous as to what 20mph actually means (25mph is fine) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182&page=2#post-110661 Thu, 16 May 2013 09:25:38 +0000 Dave 110661@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure whether maybe there was a cross-edit but I actually missed all of WC's first post until today;</p> <p><em>"I'm afraid I think your comment, "Again we see the stark difference between attitudes to motoring and cycling provision in the UK" is completely wrong. I live in an area where every road is 20mph, where there are speed bumps, and road narrowings. All done because a few (and yes, it's a few) break the speed limit to such an extent that it's necessary."</em></p> <p>But surely this isn't in any way comparable, because road narrowings and speed bumps cause little delay (versus the posted speed limit) and certainly don't restrict access entirely. I also live in a 20mph zone with speed bumps, and I basically don't notice. </p> <p>I submit this is not the same as forcing people to repeatedly dismount, unhitch their child trailer, get the kids out, lift it over a barrier, get the kids back inside and re-hitch it (all in the pouring rain? Family fun!)</p> <p><em>Similarly, if there are problems with a few cyclists cycling in such a ridiculous manner to cause people concern ... then I actually think it's right and proportionate to try and put things in place that slow those cyclists down.</em></p> <p>Agreed, the key word being proportionate... so for instance, there are those staggered slalom gates on the canal - fine provided that they accommodate wheelchairs, tandems, families with trailers and so on. </p> <p>But that's not what was being suggested in the OP (I appreciate you are perhaps speaking to the wider point).</p> <p><em>If you're cycling (or driving) reasonably then the 'barriers' are actually of no consequence. If I drive at 20 in a 20 then the speed bumps are easy - only people who are somewhat faster than that have a cause to complain. Similarly, the likes of the chicane barriers on the canal path are dead easy at 12mph and don't slow you down, it's only if you're going faster that it's an issue.</em></p> <p>Yes, and this is why a chicane that all users can negotiate isn't really a problem, in the same way that speed bumps or road narrowings aren't a problem to drivers i.e. again "of no consequence" is the key point. </p> <p>Only if there were so many chicanes that ordinary people stopped bothering with the route and drove instead would I really argue against those. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110649 Wed, 15 May 2013 23:37:47 +0000 Focus 110649@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ crowriver</p> <p>"Far more intimidating than a few cyclists are wee neds on (stolen?) motorbikes whizzing up and down shared use paths at high speed..."</p> <p>Had a that several times, mainly Craigleith/Silverknowes section and Bingham (where the large grassy area is. Dialed 999 when I was nearly hit but by the time the operator (somewhere in Aberdeenshire by the accent) understood where I was, they were long gone and I never heard back from the Police about it.</p> <p>The first examples I mentioned are usually travelling folk who have set up camp around the Cramond/Silverknowes foreshore area and clearly no laws of the land apply to them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110633 Wed, 15 May 2013 15:16:07 +0000 tammytroot 110633@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I too get annoyed with "the punish the innocent" because we can't afford/be bothered to police rules properly. many ?most? speed bumps/chicanes are poorly designed and built, such that they neither deter the determined miscreant, nor allow less able persons to proceed in an easy manner. IIRC the barriers on the canal have been altered in response to complaints from wheelchair users. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110632 Wed, 15 May 2013 14:40:45 +0000 crowriver 110632@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>the Stationery Office (as was)</em></p> <p>Now a cafe with bike racks outside:</p> <p><a href="http://goo.gl/maps/6J0VF" rel="nofollow">http://goo.gl/maps/6J0VF</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110623 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:58:10 +0000 Dave 110623@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think anyone can defend passing children at 28mph, except if you do it in a car in which case it's fine - even in a 20 zone, as the police advise they will not enforce them.</p> <p>On the other hand, as WC rightly says, we don't stop (trying to) enforce good driving behaviour in motorists just because lorry drivers cause a disproportionate number of deaths, so I can accept that problem cycling shouldn't be tolerated just because problem driving is. </p> <p>If it were up to me, rather than installing gates to block disabled people, unusual bikes, family trailers etc completely, and drive a lot of normal users onto other routes (possibly by car) I'd do the following:</p> <p>Set up a police checkpoint with video surveillance of the route. Wait for the first cyclist who is clocked at 28mph while passing school kids and charge them with careless (or dangerous) cycling, and then advertise whatever fine they got, along with the fact that further random checks would be held, on posters along the path.</p> <p>Although many are careless of the niceties of the law given the daily struggle to stay alive on the roads, not many outright deliquents can manage 28mph, unless there's a hefty downhill. I suspect riders doing this are established middle class and might be a little more susceptible to mind games. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110620 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:34:44 +0000 lionfish 110620@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think I agree with both sides of the discussion :D</p> <p>It does indicate that cyclists do seem to be hit harder by intervention: Every day on the roads I feel "threatened by [cars] travelling at inappropriate speeds", but as Dave says the council wouldn't make car drivers come to a complete halt get out and get back in again. I think both on the roads and bike lanes where there is a problem then speed bumps might be the solution, or occasionally (e.g. coming into a village) a narrow only-one-car-can-get-through bit, or the fences on the canal? They don't seem to be taking into account the fact that cars go way faster than these bikes (you mentioned 28mph was clocked near a school - this is probably quite low most of the time for cars going past a school, and I'd prefer to be hit by a cyclist than a car given the choice :). Finally, I think one issue (which is reflected in Edinburgh too) is that these 'cycle routes' all seem to be shared with pedestrians - in the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, etc they have separate bike lanes! That would largely end this constant conflict which is inevitable if you mix large numbers of cyclists and pedestrians on narrow paths. I know that's maybe a bit of an ideal, but at the moment the bike paths all seem to have taken/shared space with pedestrians rather than taking space from cars? Anyway, it's a tricky one: On the NEPN for example the routes are maybe too narrow. Also something in me is against over-regimenting the world with paint down every path... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110619 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:23:53 +0000 fimm 110619@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Are those chicane barriers passable by persons on tandems, towing trailers, or similar? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110618 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:20:12 +0000 SRD 110618@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"the likes of the chicane barriers on the canal path are dead easy at 12mph and don't slow you down, it's only if you're going faster that it's an issue."</p> <p>Or if you're Uberuce... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110615 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:07:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 110615@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Under the old DDA they definitely were. As per the quotes above 'service' included 'facility' which included anywhere to which the general public had access (and local authorities (England, and their Scottish counterparts) were specifically mentioned as relevant providers).</p> <p>I'd suspect the new Equality Act would replicate much of that kind of thing - but it likely updated to take account of the fact that everyone had had 15 years to get used to the DDA. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110614 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:04:35 +0000 Dave 110614@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From a little google it seems this is so that, for instance, everybody who owns a ferry (or train rolling stock) didn't immediately have to replace it or face legal action.</p> <p>I'm not sure whether the local authority providing and maintaining a path is 'providing a service' for the purposes of the act, of course. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110611 Wed, 15 May 2013 11:52:59 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 110611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cheers Morningsider - the Stationery Office (as was) normally notes when something has been replaced - DDA may be a little old for them to have got round to that yet. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110610 Wed, 15 May 2013 11:51:39 +0000 Morningsider 110610@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>WC - the DDA was wholly repealed by the Equality Act 2010. It's hideously complicated and I don't have time to look into it at the moment - seems much more comprehensive in the protections it offers than the DDA at a quick glance though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10182#post-110609 Wed, 15 May 2013 11:50:36 +0000 cc 110609@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Another way to slow down traffic is to redesign the road or path so that it looks like a place where you'd naturally go slowly, rather than like a race track.</p> <p>But better than that though would be dedicated cycle paths which were wide and straight and even enough to safely support high speed <em>and</em> low speed use. </p>