http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Jim and Keith in Shangri-La en Mon, 18 May 2026 17:24:14 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114540 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:00:15 +0000 Morningsider 114540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I agree that strict liability is a side issue. Are potential cyclists really put off by the thought that it might be tricky to get compensation if they are hit by a car - doubtful. I would argue that it's the thought of getting hit by a car that puts most off. Until that fear, which if pretty widespread, is dealt with then cycling will remain a niche activity. </p> <p>How do you deal with that fear - much better infrastructure. I can't see how anything else will work - you can train people, advertise cycling all you want - if people don't feel safe then they won't cycle. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114536 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:41:54 +0000 Calum 114536@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes. For me the primary campaign goal is a structural separation of drivers and cyclists. Everything else is secondary or irrelevant.</p> <p>Any fool can book a flight to Amsterdam but it takes vision and bravery to radically alter every street in the country. That kind of thing requires more than change from the cash register and no amount of transparent PR stunts or junkets to NL changes the fact that the SNP, just like all the other main parties, are not interested in putting up the money. </p> <p>This is why cycling in Scotland faces a very bleak future of continuing stagnation and marginalisation. Unless political will is generated we will be sitting here in 2020 with a modal share of, at best, 2%. And they know this - all their cycling "initiatives" and "targets" are a mirage. I'm absolutely certain that if we ever have mass cycling in this country, that achievement will have had absolutely nothing to do with Keith Brown. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114533 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:12:00 +0000 Arellcat 114533@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>David Hembrow, who seems to have an uncanny knack of always being right, recently wrote this article:</p> <p><a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/01/campaign-for-sustainable-safety-not.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/01/campaign-for-sustainable-safety-not.html</a></p> <p>about why "strict liability" isn't actually the panacea us non-Dutch think it is, not even slightly; and why "sustainable safety" is the real key to raising cycling participation.</p> <p><em>"Strict Liability has, at best, a very small role to play in keeping cyclists in the Netherlands safe.</p> <p>If we can engineer roads in a way that takes human failings into account and which results in crashes, injuries and deaths being less common then this is a far more reliable way to improve safety than any amount of punishment after the event."</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114375 Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:11:09 +0000 crowriver 114375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have this feeling that Cabinet Secretary Brown is not someone given to sudden bursts of insight or inspiration. He's much more of a battler, fighting his corner against all comers, doggedly holding his position in the teeth of wave after wave of enemy onslaught...</p> <p>You get the idea.</p> <p>It's also abundantly clear which side he is fighting for. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114371 Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:01:53 +0000 shuggiet 114371@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes it was... And the expected bland non-committal answer to the PoP question duly appeared...I was vaguely hoping to see some signs in his answers (to any of the questions), that he was newly energized and inspired from his visit. But no... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114367 Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:37:54 +0000 fimm 114367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That twitter thing was a bit pish - it looked like he only answered about 3 questions... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114361 Fri, 14 Jun 2013 07:03:20 +0000 chdot 114361@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps it's a shame they went in summer -</p> <p><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=5JQr8cm-6X4" rel="nofollow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=5JQr8cm-6X4</a></p> <p>Note the car caution - no doubt something to do with strict liability... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114305 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:58:28 +0000 Morningsider 114305@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cycle parking at railway stations. Do you think that will be the type of cycle parking you seen in The Netherlands, or more of the random Sheffield racks which stand forlorn in the corners of most Scottish railway stations, open to the elements and passing neds... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114299 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:41:48 +0000 chdot 114299@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Didn't answer questions about paying trainers to deliver Bikeability. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114298 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:40:46 +0000 chdot 114298@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Keith Brown MSP (@KeithBrownMSP)<br /> 13/06/2013 16:01<br /> @CyclingEdin @WWFScotland ... the need for provision for cycle parking to enable integration with train and other modes.</p> <p>"</p> <p>That's almost like a commitment! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114288 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 16:02:43 +0000 chdot 114288@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Keith Brown MSP (@KeithBrownMSP)<br /> 13/06/2013 16:00<br /> @CyclingEdin @WWFScotland V.pleased to see 1st hand a range of measures &amp; will consider how these measures could be applied in Scotland...</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114271 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:08:27 +0000 steveo 114271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dogs are an extension of your property so I doubt liability would be an issue, you'd be facing criminal charges and potentially jail time. Cars of course have a will of their own so they can be held to account whilst the drivers is basically blameless in an incident usually just a fine and off you go.</p> <p>You know some days I think the law has things backwards... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114264 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:49:41 +0000 Arellcat 114264@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Tweet: Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?</em></p> <p>But doesn't the UK already operate forms of strict liability? Why is its application to cycling somehow impossible?</p> <p>One reason I've been told by an anti-liability person is that it would be 'unfair' to the motorist because of all these idiot people who ride with dark clothing and without lights at night, and thereby are asking to be hit, and there would 'surely' be evidence in favour of the motorist. It has also been eloquently suggested to me that it wouldn't matter, because it was the motorist's <em>decision</em> to be driving at all at that time.</p> <p>If I go the Meadows to walk my dog*, and my dog bites someone while off the leash, and that someone is injured as a result, does liability come into play there? It would have been my choice to be in a populated place with a (potentially) dangerous animal and also without adequate controls.</p> <p>* I don't in fact own a dog. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114249 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:08:49 +0000 crowriver 114249@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Cllr Orr's blog:</p> <p>'He said that a car is “always the first choice for the public” but that the city is “full up.” Wiebes also commented that there is an “endless struggle of parking spaces versus cycle lanes” in Amsterdam, a situation which for once felt familiar to the UK delegates.'</p> <p>I find that very telling. It's basically the only situation he identifies with! The rest is all 'interesting' but presumably also so different from day to day Edinburgh that it's completely alien...</p> <p>What of substance will come from this study trip, I wonder? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114248 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 14:01:42 +0000 minus six 114248@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>its jist... its jist different cultures eh, ye ken?</p> <p>aw that waccy baccy... its gone to their heids.</p> <p>thiv gone pure bike crazy !</p> <p>cannae wait tae get hame.</p> <p>wir duallin' the north !!</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114244 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:52:17 +0000 Morningsider 114244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I am hoping to bring back many of the lessons learned from this visit and discuss these further with the cycling community and local authorities back home in order to improve and promote bike use across Scotland." - KB. </p> <p>There you have it, the only commitment is to have a discussion. Also, it is the same visit as Jim Orr etc. is on, just the Minister was only there for the Tuesday.</p> <p>I'm not aware of the SG report on strict liability ever being published - I certainly can't seem to find it.</p> <p>Details: <a href="http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Minister-heads-to-the-Netherlands-to-explore-cycling-opportunities-for-Scotland" rel="nofollow">http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Minister-heads-to-the-Netherlands-to-explore-cycling-opportunities-for-Scotland</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114243 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:51:44 +0000 crowriver 114243@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>That certainly seems to be the SNP view. So destructive and stupid.</em></p> <p>On anecdotal evidence, it's a very widely held view in society as a whole. SNP never afraid to play the populist card. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114242 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:50:24 +0000 crowriver 114242@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Councillor Jim Orr – Last day in Amsterdam</p> <p><a href="http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/councillor-jim-orr-last-day-in-amsterdam/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/06/councillor-jim-orr-last-day-in-amsterdam/</a></p> <p>I detect a somewhat wistful tone towards the end there. Maybe something along the lines of "This is amazing, it's like a dream! Alas, I'm from Edinburgh, and we'll never get away with anything like it..." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114241 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:49:47 +0000 cc 114241@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Anyone who disnae drive is a daftie!</em></p> <p>That certainly seems to be the SNP view. So destructive and stupid. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114239 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:38:05 +0000 crowriver 114239@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh aye, and it rains here. I understand the weather is always really fantastic in the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany an' a' that.</p> <p>I mean, come on, it's Scotland! Anyone who disnae drive is a daftie! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114235 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:28:02 +0000 minus six 114235@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Tweet</em>: </p> <p>Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?</p> <p><em>Shareef</em>: </p> <p>I'm glad you've asked that. Erm... because we've got hills? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114234 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:25:04 +0000 crowriver 114234@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Which begs the question, what's Keith doing/seeing?</em></p> <p>Tour of the 'coffee shops'/red light districts?<br /> Meeting with Dutch motorsport enthusiasts?<br /> Soliciting bidders for the Scotrail franchise?<br /> Meeting with war veterans' representatives? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114232 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:16:00 +0000 Roibeard 114232@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Jim Orr's latest blog <em>"It was great that [Keith Brown] took the time to join us for most of the day and all the Dutch were very impressed by this."</em></p> <p>Oops - very clear suggestion that Jim isn't actually on the same visit as Keith. Which begs the question, what's Keith doing/seeing?</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114231 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:14:01 +0000 fimm 114231@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Tweeted the strict liability question - on my phone so not going to copy it here. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114224 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:29:03 +0000 chdot 114224@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One problem is that SG 'relies' on the fact it's 'up to local authorities'. </p> <p>In Copenhagen I think officials tried a few things, then got a degree of cautious political support, <em>then</em> discovered that the public wanted more!!</p> <p>There is a UK/Scottish/Edinburgh assumption that those who don't want it (the alleged silent majority motorists/voters) will shout loudest. </p> <p>We have politicians (this is not particularly directed at the SNP - they just happen to be in power) who believe that toll-free new bridges, bypasses etc. = popular = votes. </p> <p>At 'best' this is short-sighted and may well be wrong and (perhaps) contributing to 'voter apathy'. </p> <p>Need more officials/politicians willing to argue that 'active travel' is good - requires investment, but will save money (after most politicians are unelected/retired). </p> <p>Just have to hope there isn't a conversation along the lines of </p> <p>'Well Jim, we've had a great time and learned a lot and <em>could</em> do a lot of it at home. But we are not going to, so don't promise anything'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406#post-114221 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:08:56 +0000 crowriver 114221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider, yeah I saw something about that. I still think he hasn't said <em>why</em> though. "we are not able to make a correlation between liability and improved safety" is not an explanation, it's an obfuscation. </p> <p>Perhaps the question ought to be:</p> <p>"Why do you think strict liability legislation governing road collisions will not improve road safety?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406#post-114219 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:59:17 +0000 cc 114219@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There seems no prospect of mass cycling in Scotland under the SNP. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406#post-114218 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:57:53 +0000 fimm 114218@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That would be a good question, actually... "In what way is the climate in Copenhagen different from that in Scotland, which means that lessons can't be learned from their policies on cycling?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406#post-114217 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:28:04 +0000 Arellcat 114217@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"…we investigated the situation in other countries, and we are not able to make a correlation between liability and improved safety."</em></p> <p>The report of that investigation might be worth obtaining. I find KB's response to be completely barking.</p> <p><em>"We are also talking to people in Denmark and Spain and are trying to learn the lessons of what they have done there. Of course, it is true to say that not every lesson will be transferable. We have a different climate and a different topography from those places, but we want to learn lessons from their experience."</em></p> <p>This kind of sums it up. Scotland has hills and a motoring culture that is encouraged by Government, so we can't really follow the lead of the Dutch or the Danish. Perhaps the real lesson to be learned, the question to be asked, is actually "How do the popular European authorities deal with hills when planning cycle infrastructure?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406#post-114216 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:27:00 +0000 minus six 114216@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Depressing but predictable.</p> <p>He thinks it's not kosher. </p> <p>Fundamentally he can't take it. </p> <p>You know he really hates it. </p>