http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Women's cycle races en Tue, 26 May 2026 12:46:58 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-120537 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 16:55:06 +0000 chdot 120537@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Some of the world's best cyclists will take to the roads of London this weekend for the inaugural RideLondon.<br /> But a leading female cyclist has been critical of the organisers' decision to host an elite men's road race but not an equivalent for women.</p> <p>"It doesn't fulfil the Olympic legacy," said Britain's Helen Wyman, the European cyclo-cross champion.</p> <p>"<br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23513969" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23513969</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119607 Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:02:11 +0000 Charterhall 119607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Prudhomme dismisses calls for a parallel women's Tour de France</p> <p><a href="http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/prudhomme-dismisses-calls-for-a-parallel-womens-tour-de-france" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/prudhomme-dismisses-calls-for-a-parallel-womens-tour-de-france</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119548 Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:03:58 +0000 chdot 119548@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Brian Cookson to bring together Tour de France organisers and top female riders </p> <p>UCI presidential contender aims to raise status of women's cycling </p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://road.cc/content/news/89333-brian-cookson-bring-together-tour-de-france-organisers-and-top-female-riders" rel="nofollow">http://road.cc/content/news/89333-brian-cookson-bring-together-tour-de-france-organisers-and-top-female-riders</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119260 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:04:11 +0000 wingpig 119260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps people still exhibiting the sorts of attitude which led to pronounced human sexual dimorphism in the first place could start organising bicycle races using orang-utans or elephant seals, where the size/strength disparity between females and males is much greater.</p> <p><blockquote><em>"Can you see those arguments actually being taken seriously in the future?"</em></blockquote></p> <p>Depressingly, yes, as even people my own age and younger are still displaying signs of having been imprinted with outdated thoughts and policies during their upbringing, even when such things were seen as embarrassingly old-fangled decades ago. Hopefully the only people who still take them seriously in the future will be in a minority, and not in positions of influence. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119259 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:03:06 +0000 Roibeard 119259@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>duifjes</em> = pigeons? I suspect Google Translate has let me down there!</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119252 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:41:33 +0000 Minerva 119252@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Charterhall: <em>"I don't believe you guys. We're talking about women's participation in the Tour de France and you are basing your arguments on the George Pennel APR, the ERC chaingang and, heaven help us, Strava. What planet do you live on ?"</em></p> <p>To be fair, the comments you criticise are about things that actually happen, not somewhat whimsical "notions" about terrible things that might happen, some day, but actually haven't. And where do you think those Tour De France riders start out? Their local road races and cycling clubs, or do they all come from a Columbian mountainside? Read the palmares of the top riders, and you will find out that many of them are still members of their local cycling clubs. Quintana's one is now named after him!</p> <p>Its not just The Netherlands I've lived in (again, surprised this is such a note of contention/offence on here)- there is a whole world out there and not everywhere and everyone thinks in the same way. i.e. that all women are, deep down, <em>duifjes</em>.</p> <p>Wilmington's Cow: I doubt gaps between male and female performance will close that much due to biological differences (although you do get some very large powerful women and some small, weak men). But denying women the chance to participate in the same events is now outdated, and its time cycling caught up. </p> <p>That said, its becoming more frequent that women are winning mixed 10ks overall, or placing in the top 3 in my local races. This is probably an anomaly though, as standards (based on times) and participation in men's competitive running has declined in the past 20 years, while women's running has seen the opposite effect.</p> <p>I'm not exactly sure what people are arguing against here. Do you seriously think cycling should not go forwards with female participation and that there is some inherent danger in doing so? Can you see those arguments actually being taken seriously in the future? Some of those comments about women lacking power to make attacks, women's races being boring to watch and women being subjected to the terrible forces of headwinds were some of the most amusing and archaic I've ever read! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119250 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:31:07 +0000 Baldcyclist 119250@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23422209">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23422209</a></p> <p>Women's Tour seems to be gaining some momentum... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119217 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:15:15 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 119217@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Earth.</p> <p>Still dismissive without actually explaining. Why can't the various levels be scaled up? (and we're not <em>really</em> talking about women's participation in the Tour de France, the actual suggestion by the petition and so on is that there is a <em>parallel</em> women's race, possibly run at the same time, but not actually competing <em>against</em> the blokes - though obviously there's clearly the scope to debate whether it shoudl actually be a case of men and women all competing together).</p> <p>I'd imagine in most sporting instances it could be scaled up. So at a local athletics meet, for example, the men will run the 1500m faster than the women, and at the elite level I'd wager the percentage difference is similar. So why wouldn't that be the case for cycling?</p> <p>I don't think anyone is suggesting the women would come into the race and start winning everything in front of the men - by my own rationale above I don't believe that would be the case, but by the same rationale I don't think the gap would actually be as big as people imagine, and if you factor in the tactical nature of cycling, with large periods on flat roads with the peloton merely cruising along, no-one actually at the limit, I think you'd probably find that the elite women of cycling would quite happily and easily remain within the peloton.</p> <p>Mountains might prove more difficult, though I do wonder if the physiology of a smaller, slighter frame might help bridge at least some of the gap.</p> <p>What we also might find is that with male and female mixed competitors women start closing the gap because they're getting the same funding and training and opportunities. That's entirely hypothetical of course, but I think there's some merit in the suggestion.</p> <p>p.s. neither female, nor lived in the Netherlands either - not sure if that changes any opinions... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119202 Wed, 24 Jul 2013 07:29:31 +0000 Charterhall 119202@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't believe you guys. We're talking about women's participation in the Tour de France and you are basing your arguments on the George Pennel APR, the ERC chaingang and, heaven help us, Strava. What planet do you live on ? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119180 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:47:37 +0000 Minerva 119180@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cyclingmollie: - nothings changed then! That's how a lot of local races here pan out. ERC are just so big compared to other clubs. My favourite type of race is when you are having a really good day and you sit near the front or midpack all day, waiting and knowing there will be a breakaway at some point, and you get on it. I'm a power type rider and that's the sort of tactics that suits me best.</p> <p>Fimm - I never had the need to pee during the cycle stage of the Ironman but I did (apologies for TMI) produce a poo during the run (there were temporary toilets on the route), which I think was quite an achievement for a body under stress. I didn't see anyone else stopping to pee during the cycle either, but I wasn't looking for it - the race was at the forefront of my mind, funnily enough! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=3#post-119168 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:09:13 +0000 Cyclingmollie 119168@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>fimm: <em>"I would have thought that the men would simply leave the women behind"</em></p> <p>Maybe. I rode in the 2005 George Pennel Memorial APR. This was a race with six or seven groups setting off at two minute intervals on a 50 mile course. It was open to all including women and elite riders. I was in the third group which had two female riders. They kept up but sat in - didn't take a turn at the front. </p> <p>It would have been hard to tell from watching at the side of the road but from Talla Linnfoots when most of the field came together ERC slowed the pace to allow an ERC break to get away. That they were away was of course not known to the elite riders who caught us on Talla. They pressed on hard but presumably thought they were at the front as they never caught the break. </p> <p>I'm not sure what's wrong with Strava. Lots of big names from the local clubs feature. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119166 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 18:32:21 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 119166@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>? ? ?</p> <p>Confused as to the problem with the Strava reference? I mean, I know it's not elite athletes, but you've got segments that people are trying to go their fastest on, and you can break it down into best male and female times. Is it not at least a reasonable reference point? Honestly open to convincing otherwise, but the post isn't illuminating as to the issue; merely dismissive.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119165 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:32:58 +0000 Charterhall 119165@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Strava. Oh dear. Says it all.</p> <p>But then I'm not female and nor I have I ever lived in the Netherlands so what do I know. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119161 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:55:14 +0000 Baldcyclist 119161@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23424137">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23424137</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119160 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:53:59 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 119160@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ah yes, I believe so (I wasn't racing there, so can only postulate that I would have been overtaken at least the same number of times (though the Bo'ness course is one that I think would suit my riding 'style' better).</p> <p>If Strava is anything to go by, female cyclists are a damned sight closer to their male counterparts than is generally believed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119159 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:53:19 +0000 Charterhall 119159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Besides the differences between cross and road, Helen Wyman is a World class cross rider. How many in the mens field were that standard ? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119157 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:51:00 +0000 Uberuce 119157@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SuperSuzyJ was in the Open at Bo'ness, wasn't she? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119154 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:36:34 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 119154@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>You can certainly be a self-appointed one. Whether or not you are an actual authority would depend on the validity of the viewpoint and whether it stands up to scrutiny</em>"</p> <p>Well exactly, so assuming it's wrong, without knowing the validity viewpoint, would be as presumptious and incorrect as assuming it's right...</p> <p>"<em>I take it you are aware that its normal to run races with 3rd cats, vets and women together?</em>"</p> <p>First CX race I rode in they had the women in with the vets and juniors, but the British and European female CX champ (Helen Wyman) was there and specifically invited to ride in the Open race and promptly came 6th or something, destroying the majority of the field (I was lapped something like 5 times). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119153 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:34:54 +0000 fimm 119153@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm female, and have completed marathons and an Ironman triathlon (during which I got off my bike to pee, if you really want to know...) I've never raced in a purely cycling race as I don't have the group cycling skills. I'm aware that mixed fields exist in cycling races at amateur levels, but I remain to be convinced that <em>elite</em> female cyclists and <em>elite</em> male cyclists in the same field would work - I would have thought that the men would simply leave the women behind. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119150 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:16:10 +0000 Minerva 119150@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Charterhall: <em>"Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not? Professional sport isn't about participation, it's about selling products to customers."</em></p> <p>In biological terms, most advertising works on social facilitation based around hero worship and imitation and identification. So quite likely charisma and good looks are just as important as an enticing battle or a lone breakaway, in terms of selling products.</p> <p>I don't really think than in other countries there is such a passive importance attached to armchair viewing of cycling. Plenty of people race themselves, some still hold aspirations, others know racers directly. </p> <p>Wilmington's Cow: <em>"I'm pretty sure you can be a sort-of authority on something without racing. I can speak at length about cricket or rugby without ever having played, but having been a spectator for a number of years."</em></p> <p>You can certainly be a self-appointed one. Whether or not you are an actual authority would depend on the validity of the viewpoint and whether it stands up to scrutiny. </p> <p>Some of what I read on here appears to be subjective and not based on evidence. I would hazard a guess and say that some of the more archaic type comments have an agenda behind them based around maintaining the image of the self, for emotional security. What I can definitely say is that anyone who has been given performance specific sports psychology coaching, as many in national teams have been, would ignore such negative views as there is nothing to be gained from giving them credence. What is important is the athlete's own performance. </p> <p><em>Women in a mixed field would get pushed to the back within metres of the race start, and there they would stay, at the mercy of every crash, every whiplash change of pace, every crosswind. Not much fun for them, nor for spectators, nor for organisers and police. </em></p> <p>Unusual, because there are plenty of mixed races which take place even in Scotland, including close to Edinburgh, and that doesn't happen. I take it you are aware that its normal to run races with 3rd cats, vets and women together? And that some women race in open races? Neither do these terrible happenings appear to specifically affect women on the Saturday morning chain gang. Certainly cyclists who get dropped, of either sex, as happens in the TDF already, may indeed be subjected to these unmerciful potential hazards of road racing. Whats new?</p> <p>I found the comments about women being limited by the need to pee equally surprising. Clearly there are many women athletes who complete Ironman triathlons, where the bike section is 112 miles long. I have never heard of it being an issue. Or at least, not any more of an issue than for men.</p> <p>As for women doing the same TDF as men - of course they should, logistics being possible. We had exactly the same argument in marathon running, yet 20 years later Paula Radcliffe ended up heading the UK mens and womens rankings one year. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119106 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:01:51 +0000 Cyclingmollie 119106@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Charterhall: <em>"Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not ?"</em></p> <p>It depends what you mean by good. I mentioned "A Significant Other" as an example of how much goes on in the peloton that's not visible to spectators/viewers. "The Giro d’Italia – Coppi versus Bartali at the 1949 Tour of Italy" by Dino Buzzati describes the entire race from the perspective of someone who couldn't see any of the action at all. Those are two extremes but unless you want endless mood pieces Peña's is the better perspective. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119098 Tue, 23 Jul 2013 05:11:56 +0000 Charterhall 119098@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Surely the spectator's/viewer's point of view is the best point of view from which to comment on whether a race is good to watch or not ?</p> <p>Professional sport isn't about participation, it's about selling products to customers. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119013 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:34:31 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 119013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm pretty sure you can be a sort-of authority on something without racing. I can speak at length about cricket or rugby without ever having played, but having been a spectator for a number of years. </p> <p>I'd never raced a bike until a cyclocross race last year, and that plus one more cx race amount to my racing prowess to date, but as a long term enthusiast I'd hope I know a 'little' about the sport to be allowed to comment.</p> <p>Most of the decent football commentators aren't ex-players. In fact the worst pundits are often those big-name ex-pros.</p> <p>(A friend of mine once argued that to be Defence Minister you should have to have served in the army. For some reason similar arguments didn't extend to the other ministries, so the Health Minister needn't have worked in the NHS, and the Agriculture Minister needn't have once been a farmer). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-119005 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:58:43 +0000 Cyclingmollie 119005@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Minerva: <em>"What I do notice here though is that there seem to be quite a few men who cycle but don't race or race much, but who seem to hold themselves out as authorities on...racing."</em></p> <p>Can I do some special pleading? I don't race now (I'm over 50) but I have in the past competed in road races, APRs, criteriums and team and individual time-trials - the last two disciplines at national level. </p> <p>I still don't know what I'm talking about though :)</p> <p>Edit: Lack of interest and understanding of cycle racing is a major issue in this country (Le Tour excepted). I only once had anyone who knew me show up to watch. When I've entered sportives or Audax events I have to explain that I'm not taking part in a race. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118988 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:55:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 118988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From PS:</p> <p>"<em>Almost all sport is, to the uninitiated, pretty dull. The spectator needs to invest time to understand the nuances and develop the interest that allows them to appreciate say 5 hours of a cycling race where very little happens until the last 10kms.</em>"</p> <p>Sums up the trouble I have trying to explain to people why cricket is so so good to watch, but you've got to invest that time to properly appreciate the ebb and flow.</p> <p>I'll second the mentions of Nicole Cooke's Beijing win being one of the most exciting cycling moments for many a year, and the women on the track are just as exciting and intense as the blokes. <em>Some</em> sports suffer, which as much as anything will be a historic lack of the same numbers taking part, and not yet being truly professional and so not having as great skill levels. The top of women's football is somewhat below that of the top level of men's football. But then I don't watch Scottish football because the quality of play is so much lower than other leagues around the world.</p> <p>Have to admit I've never come across the point before that women's sporting events can't be the same as men's because women have to pee differently....</p> <p>(Tennis gets round the problem quite easily - since it was raised - by having rather natural breaks in play, and as has been mentioned Paula Radcliffe showed how athletics can deal with it - as has also been pointed out, we're a little Anglo-Saxon 'urgh but that's dirty' in our view of such things). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118938 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 22:28:22 +0000 Minerva 118938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh, and in answer to the question about peeing mid-race. I think Paula Radcliffe answered rather clearly what women athletes are prepared to resort to when in competition mode. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118937 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 22:25:22 +0000 Minerva 118937@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm female and have done road races in the past, both mixed and female only. In my experience, the fields in the female only races have been smaller and therefore its easier to spot breaks. They've also raced hard right from the word go, perhaps because they are shorter. Same with mountain bike races. I've also lived in The Netherlands (bonus points to those who make the correlation with my username) and we don't really come across those type of comments there.</p> <p>What I do notice here though is that there seem to be quite a few men who cycle but don't race or race much, but who seem to hold themselves out as authorities on...racing.</p> <p>I also used to be a track athlete ie a 1500m runner to County level. When compared to the enlightened attitudes in running, some of the comments on here about "female cyclists" sound somewhat archaic. Its really quite amusing. </p> <p>Be careful though. While British men were leading the world 20 years ago in the 1500m and 800m, right now they're also rans, not even making it into finals, and the men's championship races have often tended to be slowly run tactical affairs. Whereas British women are constantly producing World and Euro Champ medallists and the races are always run hard from the gun.</p> <p>Times they are a changing...keep up or get dropped. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118926 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 16:47:59 +0000 Baldcyclist 118926@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Itv commentary team having to move off of the course because a race is about to go through. More than one race in Paris today? How did they manage to organise that I wonder, the Earth still seems to be revolving and everything! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118759 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:58:53 +0000 fimm 118759@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One word answer: drafting.</p> <p>Draft legal triathlons are raced separately by men and women. Triathlons for amateurs are not draft legal, and everyone can race together. Similarly, middle and long distance triathlons are always non-drafting, and everyone starts (more-or-less) at the same time. </p> <p>There's not really such a thing as drafting in running, of course (though the controversy over Paula Radcliffe's marathon world record shows that even that isn't quite as simple as it sounds). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10657&page=2#post-118745 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:19:11 +0000 Baldcyclist 118745@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Women in a mixed field would get pushed to the back within metres of the race start, and there they would stay, at the mercy of every crash, every whiplash change of pace, every crosswind. Not much fun for them, nor for spectators, nor for organisers and police.<br /> "</p> <p>How do they manage to organise Marathons, or Triathlons which have the added inconvenience of having members of the public racing too?</p> <p>Actually, now there's a good idea, never mind the etape de tour, the ASO could open one stage a year to Joe public, chance to race with the Pro's. Would be a marketing coup.</p> <p>EDIT: In mountain stages I'd also wager a hypothetical bet that the ladies GC contenders would finish ahead of 'the bus'. </p>