CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: EastCoast new rolling stock

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: EastCoast new rolling stock http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: EastCoast new rolling stock en Mon, 18 May 2026 13:56:58 +0000 neddie on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149433 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:11:45 +0000 neddie 149433@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Since some people bring bags 'the size of small* cars', there must be plenty of room for bikes. Disguise your bike as a small car. *I realise modern 'small' cars are no longer small Arellcat on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149430 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:59:22 +0000 Arellcat 149430@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ On another cycling forum far, far away (well, maybe 393 miles as the ECML flies), there has been discussion about the new rolling stock vis-à-vis bicycles. The upshot, insofar as Kim was allowed to reveal, is dangly spaces and 'handlebar tetris'. <a href="https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=79449.msg1631370#msg1631370" rel="nofollow">https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=79449.msg1631370#msg1631370</a> As a result, the Board of Trade or whomever decided that new driving trailers could no longer have passenger seats in them… Probably one more nail in the APT-P coffin, justified or otherwise. crowriver on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149426 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:53:26 +0000 crowriver 149426@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ [i][/i]the Voyager trains sound like an old bus inside.[i] The Voyagers are a bit noisy. Reasonably comfy, not enough luggage space, derisory bike compartment at the back IIRC. Folding bike the way to go from 2019 onwards methinks. For tandems, need a steel frame plus S&S couplings or a folding tandem (they exist but a bit pricey). kaputnik on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149416 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 12:03:46 +0000 kaputnik 149416@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ No detailed plans have been publicly released of the interior as to how they will achieve the increased capacity. The mockups are not yet completed either. There should be more room inside given that a lot more equipment will be under the floor, rather than concentrated in trailers at the end of the trainset. When the Class 91 / Mark IV trains (current East Coast electrics) were built, there was a real concern about lightweight "driving trailers" being pushed from behind by a powerful locomotive and hitting an obstruction on the line and riding up and over it, resulting in a catastrophic derailment. This happened at Polmont in the mid-1980s, where a Mark II driving trailer (basically a passenger carriage with a driver's compartment at one end) hit a cow on the line and the resulting summersaulting and concertina-ing of the train caused multiple fatalities. As a result, the Board of Trade or whomever decided that new driving trailers could no longer have passenger seats in them, hence the capaciious empty interior for bikes and luggage on the Mark III and IV rolling stock. Anyway, long story short, the new trains have no need of driving trailers and this releases passenger space in the vehicles at either end of the consist, as you get in the Pendolino and Voyager trains and other such high speed multiple units. Of course it also means you get the noise and vibration of mechanical parts under the floor of the passenger compartment, which is why the Voyager trains sound like an old bus inside. acsimpson on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149404 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:48:17 +0000 acsimpson 149404@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ When I travelled to London for the Olympics I was told that there was only space to book 2 bikes on the train but that the guard has discretion to carry more. What this meant was that I could take my bike with me but I might not be able to bring it home. Needless to say I took the tube. gembo on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149397 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:35:39 +0000 gembo 149397@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Recently only ever Been on inter city with space for two bikes right at rear of train. So booking the bike on is essential. Years back the luggage carriage right at the front had space for maybe twelve bikes. Both these areas were linked to the driver compartment/back window. Will they run passenger seats right up to the driver's door like they do on Scotrail? crowriver on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149392 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:22:20 +0000 crowriver 149392@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ As I said 9 months ago upthread: "Think current Virgin trains, packed to the gunnels in airline style seats with luggage piled in the bike cubbyhole, blocking aisles, etc. 'State of the art'!" chdot on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149388 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:07:38 +0000 chdot 149388@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Do thay have baggage cars still? " Some sets do - lots of space for bikes - some just enough room to hang them vertical - if you can get past the luggage... DaveC on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149387 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 10:04:23 +0000 DaveC 149387@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ 'Check in' luggage? Do thay have baggage cars still? I know Cross Country have a small bagage section at one end of the train, as do the old Intercity diesels. I thought they were binning the baggage cars so they could install more seats? chdot on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149383 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 09:55:05 +0000 chdot 149383@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "More optimisticly perhaps they are longer" Not sure how much scope there is for that due to platform length. "or have a smaller first class." Possibly get away with one fewer 1st coaches, but that wouldn't account for 19% more seats. So - squeeze luggage space (East Coast is already encouraging passengers to check in large items), less space per seat, fewer tables? acsimpson on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149381 Thu, 17 Apr 2014 09:47:29 +0000 acsimpson 149381@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "19% more seats on each train" So perhaps not a lot of luggage/bike space(?) More optimisticly perhaps they are longer or have a smaller first class. chdot on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149322 Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:01:36 +0000 chdot 149322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "19% more seats on each train" So perhaps not a lot of luggage/bike space(?) crowriver on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-149320 Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:57:05 +0000 crowriver 149320@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ East Coast train manufacturer finaly confirmed. So that's why they went for Hitachi rolling stock... <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27050719" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-27050719</a> fimm on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-119035 Mon, 22 Jul 2013 15:16:09 +0000 fimm 119035@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/cycling-to-stations-doubles-in-7-years" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/cycling-to-stations-doubles-in-7-years</a> PS on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-118911 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:04:19 +0000 PS 118911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Is there too much concentration on 'destination London'? Unfortunately that's how the railways are designed. It's astonishing how awkward it is to get from Edinburgh to Manchester by train. @Tulyar The mess of divvying up fares to train operators should go away once we finally get smart ticketing (national Oyster card-style), which will make it clear which passenger used which operator. Not holding my breath for that, though. chdot on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740&page=2#post-118903 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 09:30:05 +0000 chdot 118903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "London to Stirling via Cumbernauld or as with WSMR London to Stirling via Edinburgh but not stopping at Edinburgh Waverley might be the sort of options." Which raises all sorts of interesting questions. The first is whether the rules could/should be changed to avoid the need for 'artificial' routes? Are there a whole set of new cross country routes that should have direct services (or perhaps faster/more frequent ones - probably by stopping at fewer stations)? Is there too much concentration on 'destination London'? Would independence mean more or fewer trips to London? With or without independence should there be more/better links with the north of England - or even the north of Scotland? Then there's the question of encouraging (or not) more travel! But this is 'transport' - can't expect it to be too rational. Perhaps a greatly upgraded rail line to Inverness would be better than dualling the A9(?) If there is any case for High Speed Rail, perhaps the first route should be (say) Salford to Stirling!? Currently there is no shortage of transport developments in/around/to London. Tulyar on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118898 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 06:02:39 +0000 Tulyar 118898@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ PS my suggestion for simplifying the fares (and reducing them) in Scotland, would be that all services North of Edinburgh and Glasgow are operated by Scotrail but that some of the morning and evening services are delivered by running the trains that continue South to England as Scotrail services using the ECML and WCML trains (currently Cross Country, East Coast, TPE and Virgin). In the mornings especially the use of trains which would otherwise be waiting to start service in Edinburgh and Glasgow to provide extra capacity from Perth, Dundee etc was an idea started by Chris Green, and would also mean direct services to & from London from a far bigger range of Scottish towns & cities, as well as maximising the use of the trains. It isn't that unusual to sub-contract to another operator to provide trains, crews etc, and as the routes would then be solely Scotrail the mess and cost of dividing up the fare revenue pro rata to passenger numbers (and the involvement of Rail Settlement Plan Ltd (a company set up in 1996 to allocate fares revenue to TOC's operating over a route) would be eliminated for routes North of Edinburgh and Glasgow. To see the effect check out Cross Country Only fares for Glasgow to Edinburgh and Newcastle, or the Glasgow (& Edinburgh?) to Leeds fare via Appleby (50% cheaper than other routes). Scotrail would hire in directly the trains from Virgin, TPE, XC, & EC to run in from suitable places. Perhaps substituting an early use of a Scotrail train to allow that train to be used later in the morning to provide extra commuter capacity. Stirling or Perth to Manchester Airport (whilst the diesels still run) or Paisley or Ayr to Manchester Airport when the electric trains arrive. Tulyar on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118897 Sun, 21 Jul 2013 05:43:02 +0000 Tulyar 118897@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ London to Stirling via Cumbernauld or as with WSMR London to Stirling via Edinburgh but not stopping at Edinburgh Waverley might be the sort of options. If the Settle & Carlisle is passed for the higher speeds that the track will allow then an option is to go London-Leeds-Carlisle-Edinburgh*, with options to depart from Euston, St Pancras, or King's Cross (Marylebone would be too crowded I think, unless thay take back the land and complete the double tunnel route of the original plans) NB the line from Marylebone crosses the line from Euston and back in N London, and all except Kings Cross run parallel (with Paddington also) in a 3-4 mile strip. Trains could also run to Kensington Olympia (where all the Scottish Motorail services departed from) *In 1978 a derailed train at East Linton meant that the Edinburgh-Leeds (North Briton) 17.50 was sent via Carlisle and because a Carlisle-Newcastle service was running to connect across, we were sent directly to Leeds down the Long Drag (the Midland Railway main line from St Pancras to Carlisle and Scotland via Dumfries (G&SW)) we arrived in Leeds early despite having to hang around for 20 minutes near Horsforth because we were early. Remember that the ECML goes North-East out of Edinburgh on its way to London, but the Caley route goes straight down to Carstairs. kaputnik on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118820 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 19:56:14 +0000 kaputnik 118820@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @crowriver - Sprinter is a wonderful misnomer for trains on the north and west lines! They should be re-branded as Stravaigers crowriver on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118757 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:57:30 +0000 crowriver 118757@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Aberdeen/Inverness services the minimum specified in the franchise conditions? From memory, three a day to Awbaredeen, two to Inversneggy? Presumably not (as) much money to be made from east coast routes north of the central belt. So new rolling stock is allocated to the (electrified) routes south of Edinburgh/Glasgow, where most people live and most money to be made? North of Inverness the rails are not welded together, so there's the old style 'clackety-clack' when the Sprinter trundles along... LaidBack on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118754 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:52:33 +0000 LaidBack 118754@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The cascade of Mk 3 carriages - with the excellent conversion by Wabtec for Chiltern to automatic doors Are they heading this way then? The current HST trains on route to Inverness still have slam doors. Combine this with old style signalling, and single track lines we're getting close to railway museum territory up here. Dualling the A9 will take years so makes sense to make most of rail (not that 'sense' has anything to do with transport on either side of the border!) PS on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118734 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:48:32 +0000 PS 118734@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The problem faced by open access operators is that they aren't allowed to launch routes that in direct competition to franchised operators... kaputnik on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118726 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 12:32:58 +0000 kaputnik 118726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Interesting point Tulyar. Virgin and East Coast have effective monopolies on their respective routes, so there isn't any real imperative for them to be offering a more comfortable carriage than their competitor. If you had the option of the IEP i.e. high-speed Megabus or an open access competitor with proper carriages and comfortable seats, good leg room and pleasantly controlled environment then I know which one I would choose and pay a bit more for. Tulyar on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118714 Fri, 19 Jul 2013 11:39:55 +0000 Tulyar 118714@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The cascade of Mk 3 carriages - with the excellent conversion by Wabtec for Chiltern to automatic doors - provides a pool of rolling stock for open access operators to offer with a 40 year predicted bodyshell life and for both HST and IC225 (Mk4 carriages) lower lease costs than the IEP or even the 390 Pendo trains (which incidentally are also cheaper to lease and operate than IEP). HST and IC225 carriages with new locos from Europe (TRAXX) could provide Hull Trains and Grand Central with some improved stock and enhanced capacity, and might even tempt an open access operator to seek paths on the East Coast, and even the West Coast. Then we mighty see true competition and I wonder where the passengers seeking comfort, a reasonable if not maximum average speed and free wifi might go? Alistair Dormer has noted that his designers should engage with cyclists in getting the design right, and I have (in need of editing) videos of bikes bashing around on the hooks on Virgin and Cross Country Voyager trains. After all the serious work starts once the ink dries. Very prescient in current warm weather is the detail of several carriages on trains I've recently used, struggling to provide cooled air in the air conditioning circuit, due I suspect to the condenser cooling air temperature being too high to deliver a temperature gradient sufficient to transfer heat out from the coolant circuit and thus putting warm fluid (or worse - gas) through to the evaporator or locking out with the sensors. 10-20% of the train had failed A/c on both ECML and WCML trips last week. LaidBack on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118599 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:54:45 +0000 LaidBack 118599@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Not sure what will happen to rolling stock on the East Coast north of Edinburgh. Is there any good news on better trains being used there? (Think I can guess the answer). Imagine if trains to Inverness and Aberdeen were actually nice to use! neddie on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118567 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:19:50 +0000 neddie 118567@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ with 18% extra capacity... That'll be where your luggage & bike space went then. Probably got rid of half the toilets too, I mean who needs them on a long journey (to h*ll) Morningsider on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118535 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:45:00 +0000 Morningsider 118535@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ 140mph is viable on sections of the East Coast Main Line (ECML) once Network Rail roll-out the European Rail Traffic Management System (incorporating at least level 2 European Train Control System). This might be installed along the ECML by 2021-2024, although the testing and initial roll-out of the system has been dogged by delays - so wouldn't hold your breath. Worth pointing out that the current ECML 225 rolling stock can do 140mph (225 meaning 225kmph, or 140mph). kaputnik on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118534 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 16:44:36 +0000 kaputnik 118534@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Class 91 Locomotive can do 140mph with ease. More if it had ample space and rails to do so. I think there's a rail-industry obsession with multiple units as they're seen to be faster accellerating on stop/start services (which ECML is not). Until the most recent models, none of the High-speed French TGVs have used multiple units, the power bogies have been consigned to certain parts of the consist (not quite traditional loco and carriages as they use shared bogies). Anyway, the result is more cramped, noisy and vibration-filled passenger compartments. chdot on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118530 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:55:37 +0000 chdot 118530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Alastair Dalton (@AlastairDalton) 18/07/2013 15:54 UK Govt: "aspiration" to raise east coast main line limit from 125mph sometime after 2019 so new 140mph Hitachi trains can reach top speed " Arellcat on "EastCoast new rolling stock" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10740#post-118528 Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:48:18 +0000 Arellcat 118528@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ to create a Centre of Excellence for High Speed Rail We used to have one of those. It was known as BREL.