http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Working women are “too busy” to cycle" en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 08:32:21 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833&page=2#post-120502 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 00:26:31 +0000 Minerva 120502@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This forum seems obsessed with the perceived differences between men and women!</p> <p>The survey responses suggest it was a tick box type survey. ie the respondents were given a number of responses to identify with. I don't think its in any doubt that not that many women cycle to work here, compared with some other countries. Ditto men. And I thought most women in Scotland were supposed to want to be so-called "SAHMs" - are they affected by the lack of time to cycle as well? Or is it because they are <em>duifjes?</em></p> <p>Of course its cultural. We sometimes forget that Scotland is a tiny country with a population of just over 5 million. Even the tiny Netherlands has more than 3 times as much population. So therefore its probably true to say that most people in Northern Europe don't behave like the Scots.</p> <p>Scotland now seems to have a culture which is rather risk averse and danger avoidant, and cycling for many falls into that category. And its self perpetuating. So you end up with a society which is not set up for exercise and anything but car use. But it does seem that that is what the majority here want. So the question arises, do you change society to suit you, or move somewhere that suits you better?</p> <p>I actually keep noticing that it is the men who are exercise resistant, as I see a lot of women in Scotland out running (although this is criticised in the article). Aside from their tendency to draw squiggly patterns on themselves, many of the men here seem exercise averse in a way that is attributed to women in the article. I was swimming laps in my local pool at lunchtime yesterday, the pool was full of recreation swimmers too, mainly women and children. Quite a few young men walked in and immediately made a beeline for the sauna and steam room. None of them actually swam. Presumably that counts as their daily exercise! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120498 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 22:31:51 +0000 wingpig 120498@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"... the 'school run' didn't exist 30 years ago..."</em></p> <p>It did at my primary school, eventually resulting in a ban on drop-off/pick-up traffic at the end of the cul-de-sac at the end of which the school lurked. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120497 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 22:24:26 +0000 Kim 120497@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Many here are too young to remember, but the "school run" didn't exist 30 years ago, it is the product of motor centric Government policy. There is not reason why it should continue to exist in the 21 century, when you look at the damage it has done... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120476 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 18:02:12 +0000 minus six 120476@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>It's not about being too busy, it's about finding any old excuse</em></p> <p>nah, its about fear and lack of imagination</p> <p>neither of which are gender-specific attributes</p> <p>but both attributes are heavily promoted in this culture</p> <p>hate the game, not the playa </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120475 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 17:39:35 +0000 Charterhall 120475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A complete non story. 'Wishing they could ride to work' but ' being too busy' isn't specific to working women, you could take a survey amongst many groups of male workers and get the same result. It's not about being too busy, it's about finding any old excuse. And of course where women are concerned the most attractive excuse is to blame it on men, as alluded to by sallyh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120441 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 13:56:31 +0000 crowriver 120441@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>In the NL there are more bike journeys by women than by men, because women make more trips than men (again, shopping, childcare + work)</em></p> <p>Not just in NL, from what I've seen that's true in much of DE too, possibly DK and CH as well. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120436 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 13:47:28 +0000 crowriver 120436@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>a set-up like Hankcheif's or SRD's doesn't work as there are two children who are the same size to transport.</em></p> <p>She needs a Thorn Me'n'U2: <a href="http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-me-n-u2-2012-yellow-new-prod28191/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-me-n-u2-2012-yellow-new-prod28191/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120411 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 12:15:59 +0000 fimm 120411@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://wisob.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/on-a-conversation-with-my-sister/" rel="nofollow">http://wisob.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/on-a-conversation-with-my-sister/</a></p> <p><em>... My sister surprised me by saying that she would quite like to cycle to work, which is about 8 miles away, at least sometimes, but trying to get her children to school and nursery and then herself on to work by bike just isn’t going to happen...</em></p> <p>She complicates matters by having twins, which means that a set-up like Hankcheif's or SRD's doesn't work as there are two children who are the same size to transport. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120387 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:19:08 +0000 Instography 120387@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyway, back on topic. From my limited experience of a couple of working women in the office, my partner and a friend, women seem to cope just as easily as blokes with the whole cycling and working thing, if they want to cycle in the first place. I suspect that's the critical thing - if you want to, you'll find the way. If you don't, you'll find a reason not to.</p> <p>What seems to be needed is a little bit more preparation - clothes, panniers, sequencing activities. Just like I find I need to do to cycle to work. For instance, Mandy will walk the 100 yards up to the school with our wee lassie (Ewan walks on his own) pushing her bike and then cycle on to the shop or the gym. If she's going to the gym, she just swims because the cycling is, err, exercise. In Dutchland she bought herself a couple of those big square panniers that Dutch bikes have because, unlike the touring panniers shops here sell, they can actually hold some shopping. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120382 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:10:13 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 120382@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>@WC<br /> I'm not sure I would have enjoyed cycling in Amsterdam. It's the combination of busyness and unfamiliarity.</em>"</p> <p>I tried cycling in Amsterdam - takes a little while to get used to it. Wrote a comparison of cycling in Amsterdam and Copenhagen at the time, and I think my differentiation of Amsterdam as a rave and Copenhagen as a ballet still holds. My other half loved cycling in Copenhagen (and Paris), but we only lasted half a day on the bikes in Amsterdam. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120381 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:08:59 +0000 Instography 120381@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As I described it elsewhere: It challenges every instinct you've developed. Hands hovering over brakes, eyeballing the driver until you realise that even though he's on the roundabout and signalling to turn across your path, he's stopping in the middle of it to give you priority. Can't say I was used to it after doing it every day for a fortnight. Too conditioned by dealing with home made numpties. Dutch whizz round with headphones in, reading on their mobiles and paying no attention to the cars stopping around them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120380 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:08:24 +0000 sallyhinch 120380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Actually Copenhagen is quite daunting to cycle in, especially at rush hour. It's not the motorised traffic - it's being in a press of bikes, some going quite fast, and with unfamiliar rules to follow. It took me a while to work out how to turn left or even stop without causing a massive bike pileup (I didn't cause a pileup BTW, I just kept on cycling until I'd worked it out). Sometimes when you're visiting an unfamiliar city for a weekend, it's more relaxing just to find your way on foot </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120379 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:08:05 +0000 minus six 120379@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>When a motorist screams abuse at a cyclist, he (sometimes she) is not just saying "get out of the way", but also "you freak, you're not normal".</em></p> <p>On wednesday morning rush hour, a Stagecoach Fife driver cut me up really badly on Dean Bridge - when I caught up with him at Charlotte Square he adopted middle finger and declared that i should <em>get a life</em>.</p> <p>Young guy with a beard and turban, I'd be interested to know if anyone else has had run-ins with him.</p> <p>I can't take it up with stagecoach, because i subsequently impolitely offered to rearrange his attitude. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120378 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:07:36 +0000 crowriver 120378@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>yet UK culture has such a sensationalised fear regarding "stranger danger", toward women and/or children, hence the desire of just about everyone to sit in "safe" isolated cages as much as possible</em></p> <p>A culture we share with North America. It's a socio-liguistic historical thang. </p> <p>Most of western Europe headed down the car culture rod from the 1950s onwards, looking to the USA as the model. The difference is that in places like Denmark, Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany they started saying "that's far enough" at various points in the 1970s/1980s. UK (and other places like Spain, Portugal, even France) just kept going towards 'carmageddon'.</p> <p>The paranoiac safety culture is a by-product of car culture, not the cause. If nobody walks (or cycles), the streets are not safe. See Los Angeles as the exemplar in this regard. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120375 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:04:17 +0000 PS 120375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>That said, I have a couple of friends (who don't drive, neither has a licence, but they don't cycle either) who went for a long weekend in Copenhagen and went nowhere near a bike as they still thought it was 'too dangerous'.</em></p> <p>There's an element of non-cyclists in the UK being pre-conditioned to regard cycling as dangerous full-stop. Even places that have good segregation (NL/Ger/Den/Bel) might look dangerous to them because until you have cycled there you do not fully understand the rules of the road/priority/the extent that drivers respect cyclists and their infrastructure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120373 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:01:45 +0000 Instography 120373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC<br /> I'm not sure I would have enjoyed cycling in Amsterdam. It's the combination of busyness and unfamiliarity. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120372 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:58:36 +0000 Instography 120372@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If they could get up in time to leave at 6.30am and hang around until I get back at 6.30pm I'd happily do the school run. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120369 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:58:16 +0000 crowriver 120369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's easy to dismiss it as lack of willpower/individualism, but the social pressures to conform are incredibly powerful. Anyone have teenage kids? What they go through regarding, say, fashion sense, behavioural norms, owning the latest this or that, being 'cool' does not end when they turn 21. </p> <p>Folk may care less about the particular social anxieties of young people when they start having kids or hit middle age, but they come under other enormous pressures to conform to what 'society' expects them to be. Your house, internal décor, garden, car, furniture, gadgets, clothes, lifetstyle activities, even the food you eat all say something about who you are and your status in society. Of course as well as your peers there are external forces influencing your choices in some or all of these areas (eg. advertisers, government). </p> <p>When a motorist screams abuse at a cyclist, he (sometimes she) is not <em>just</em> saying "get out of the way", but also "you freak, you're not normal". It's not rational, it's not "nice" but it <em>is</em> sadly all too human. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120367 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:54:45 +0000 sallyhinch 120367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>PS I should add that I'm sure all you chaps on here pull your weight at home, don't leave all the childcare and shopping to your female partners and do your fair share of the school run - but that's certainly not the case across the UK </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120365 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:53:18 +0000 sallyhinch 120365@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It *is* more complicated to cycle with kids in tow, with shopping to carry, and when you've got to combine the school drop off with going on to work, turning up looking professional, and then doing the supermarket run on the way home. Add in the fact that most 'off road' routes are also dark in the winter months and back alleys and underpasses aren't very inviting to lone females, and the complications multiply. As long as women are more likely to combine childcare with work and running the home, then they are less likely to cycle *in the conditions we have in the UK*. In the NL there are more bike journeys by women than by men, because women make more trips than men (again, shopping, childcare + work) - but then as Insto says, they've got the conditions where kids can cycle alongside them and you can easily get to the shops. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120364 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:48:32 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 120364@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Which is kinda the same point. The infrastructure provision (and yes, lack of hills) makes it easier to be normal cycling. That's us looking at it as a cyclist where we can truly understand the difference in the infrastructure. To many others it'll be a case of going to the Netherlands or Denmark and saying "There are <em>loads</em> of cyclists here!</p> <p>That said, I have a couple of friends (who don't drive, neither has a licence, but they don't cycle either) who went for a long weekend in Copenhagen and went nowhere near a bike as they still thought it was 'too dangerous'.</p> <p>So actually I have no idea what my point was. As you were! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120363 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:46:06 +0000 minus six 120363@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>kids just find their own way to school, etc without the taxi service</em></p> <p>yet UK culture has such a sensationalised fear regarding "stranger danger", toward women and/or children, hence the desire of just about everyone to sit in "safe" isolated cages as much as possible </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120362 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:44:22 +0000 Instography 120362@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's partly doing what others do but partly it's doing what's easiest. Just back from the Netherlands and the three mile run to the shops for a case of beer by bike was the only mode available but I have no doubt that had the car been sitting next to the bike, I'd have been on the bike. </p> <p>It's the flatness, the separate bike lane (not a separated path), the little 'slip road' that takes you round the traffic lights so you don't need to stop, the crossing lights at the big road that stop the traffic so you barely wait, the hundreds (literally) of bike parking spaces outside the little supermarket. If he could have bought and carried the beer, I could have comfortably sent my nine-year-old on his own.</p> <p>Here? The same three miles to the shop in Rosyth. OK, there's a hill up to the main road but then I need to decide between riding the A985 (a trunk road, limit is 50 but no one does 50) or riding illegally on the narrow, bumpy, glassy footpath alongside. If I ride illegally, I still need to cross the A985 twice (find your own gap in the traffic) and once using (illegally riding on residential pavements) a pedestrian crossing.</p> <p>But you know all this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120360 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:36:19 +0000 amir 120360@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"People do whatever they see 'everyone else' doing, whatever is 'normal' where they happen to live."</p> <p>Baaaaa </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120356 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:31:47 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 120356@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>People do whatever they see 'everyone else' doing, whatever is 'normal' where they happen to live. Unless they are incedibly strong willed/'brave'/eccentric/mad. Like 'us'.</em>"</p> <p>This, 100% </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120353 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:29:04 +0000 crowriver 120353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If they were to talk to their Continental counterparts</em></p> <p>We do things differently here, we're not fully part of Europe. Europeans are aware of this as much as we are. Scotland in particular seems exotic and romantic to central Europeans: while in Leipzig my colleagues introduced me as "our guest from the island across the sea". </p> <p>Some friends of mine moved to the Netherlands from Edinburgh two years ago for career reasons. When they lived here, they went everywhere by car, they did not even own bikes. Now they live in the Netherlands, they cycle everywhere, and even own a Bakfiets for transporting kids, shopping, etc.</p> <p>People do whatever they see 'everyone else' doing, whatever is 'normal' where they happen to live. Unless they are incedibly strong willed/'brave'/eccentric/mad. Like 'us'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120347 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:15:21 +0000 crowriver 120347@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's true that "too busy" is often a cover story for a number of other reasons someone might not want to do something. In the case of cycling, those reasons are likely to be "it's too dangerous/not normal/hard work/makes you sweaty/only for poor people/I prefer my car", etc. It's just easier to say you're "too busy", a bit like when someone you don't really like invites you for tea. Don't want to offend them by revealing your true feelings, so "too busy" will do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120346 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:11:10 +0000 Kim 120346@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If they were to talk to their Continental counterparts, they would learn that in place with good cycling infrastructure, the kids just find their own way to school, etc without the taxi service and mothers have more time for themselves. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120344 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:05:52 +0000 bdellar 120344@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My wife didn't give up because it took too long. She gave up because of violently aggressive traffic. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10833#post-120329 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:17:46 +0000 crowriver 120329@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Or maybe the headline should read: "50% of women can't imagine any alternative to car culture".</p> <p>On the other hand, from the article:</p> <p><em>The cold reality is that we in the UK have a society where women get paid less in general and therefore end up working harder in many cases. Then by offering no alternative to driving, you force them to pay for a car they then have to pay to run so they can work longer hours to pay for the car and in turn the childcare costs on top. I’ve met single mums who literally spend their entire working week driving just a few miles but in slow traffic to drop of their kids to work a long shift at minimum wage to sit in their car for another couple of miles but again waiting in traffic, and repeat. That’s their life.</em> </p>