http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Meanwhile in Nottingham - victim blaming - bad police action en Sun, 31 May 2026 09:19:00 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-125539 Sat, 21 Sep 2013 09:15:26 +0000 Dave 125539@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Especially when the 'cortage effect' extends to all cars for several minutes behind the hearse. </p> <p>TBH until I read this topic I wouldn't have considered that a hearse required any special actions on my behalf (as a driver or a cyclist) but how wrong I was. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-125455 Fri, 20 Sep 2013 10:20:44 +0000 crowriver 125455@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ah, but Dave you appear to have missed the important mitigating factors which clearly influenced PC Copper's actions. </p> <p>1. The cyclist was <em>in the way</em>. I mean, that's tantamount to an offence, isn't it? It isn't? Well frankly I'm surprised in this day and age, that it is not.</p> <p>2. They were <em>mourners</em>. Can't blame them for deliberately ramming a <em>cyclist</em> for goodness' sake. I mean, being in mourning and then having to deal with one of those self-righteous, arrogant lycra louts is enough to provoke a strong reaction in otherwise law abiding, hard-pressed motorists. I mean, if you're going to wage war on the motorist, you can expect to get hurt, can't you? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-125426 Fri, 20 Sep 2013 00:19:21 +0000 Dave 125426@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So no surprise that when he then moves out into path of said car he gets knocked off.</em></p> <p>With my motoring hat on, I'm glad to read this carte-blanche to hit anyone from behind who isn't well tucked up against the kerb. Previously I thought if I had time to sound my horn for a few seconds and then drove through someone it was doubly my fault (compared with the usual situation that if you slam your motor into the back of another motor you're more or less automatically at fault). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-125416 Thu, 19 Sep 2013 19:46:29 +0000 crowriver 125416@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>At no point did anyone it passed doff anything or cease their walking in order to stand respectfully still. </em></p> <p>Probably all too busy catching up with soshul meeja on their mobys. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-125415 Thu, 19 Sep 2013 19:41:21 +0000 wingpig 125415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was behind a Co-op hearse for a bit of the way home this evening. At no point did anyone it passed doff anything or cease their walking in order to stand respectfully still. At one point it was even travelling at 22mph. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121415 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 10:34:55 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 121415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Indeed, both senses. Circular without input from the actual cyclist and driver involved. Pointless to debate further. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121414 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 10:30:40 +0000 chdot 121414@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"We might as well give up now."</p> <p>I'm sure WC means that in a wider context, but perhaps for this discussion too(?)</p> <p>Too civil to be closed, but it's going round in circles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121412 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 10:25:46 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 121412@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"but I don't see anything wrong with the police view that the cyclist was partly to blame."</p> <p>We've officially gone to hell in a handcart. Check traffic as you should; protect yourself through a pinch point as you should; signal as you should; get driven into is your own fault. We might as well give up now. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121407 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 09:54:04 +0000 minus six 121407@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We all know that there comes a time in every right turn made in moving traffic when a cyclist has to fully commit to the manoeuvre, ie. moving from a weak to a strong primary, and hope that the clear hand signal is respected.</p> <p>The police view that the cyclist was partly to blame means that we are all out there on a wing and a prayer. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121403 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 08:38:47 +0000 Charterhall 121403@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So the cyclist is attempting a right turn which obviously requires him to move across the flow of cars. He signals right but appears not to notice that he has a car behind him and that it isn't giving way. So no surprise that when he then moves out into path of said car he gets knocked off. I see lots of things wrong with the driver's and passenger's reactions but I don't see anything wrong with the police view that the cyclist was partly to blame. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121373 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 17:55:53 +0000 Uberuce 121373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>At my mum's funeral there were two people dressed a bit like Charlie Chaplin waiting at the bus stop by the junction to the cemetary. One of them stood in the middle of the lane, so everyone had to go over to the oncoming lane to turn off.</p> <p>I think very large quantities of drugs were involved, judging by facial expression and road position. I wasn't in any way happy with the disrespect.</p> <p>No-one ran them over.</p> <p>I don't accept funeral as a mitigating factor for punishment driving. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121369 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 17:28:57 +0000 Baldcyclist 121369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Quick question. Funeral procession proceeding down the street, with half of it over a junction the lights go red, should the traffic that then has a green light show respect by not going and letting the rest of the procession go through red?<br /> "</p> <p>In a highway code sense, no, but I would say yes.</p> <p>I can say from personal experience of my mum's funeral that when we went onto the Lizzie Brice round about from the Dual Carriageway in Livingston, all of cars on the round about stopped to allow the entire procession through even though they did of course have right of way. That was...'nice'.</p> <p>I personally allow others in that position the same respect. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121367 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:57:15 +0000 allebong 121367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I refuse to accept any notion that being in a funeral precession somehow entitles a person to immunity from normal sensible driving standards. No that wasn't sarcasm, I wouldn't be at all happy about the passes at the pinch points, funeral or not. I genuinely believe the majority of drivers would hold back through there especially given the cyclist has made their right-turning intentions abundantly clear. Does that mean all road users should show no respect to funerals? Of course not. Does that mean it's open season on people that one way or another 'disrupt' a precession? Nope.</p> <p>Heck the more I watch it the more I'm shocked at the behavior of the main funeral cars. Every precession I've ever seen has been a very slow and considerate affair. Never, ever seen that sort of aggression. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121365 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:30:33 +0000 wingpig 121365@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You <em>could</em> be stronger in your condemnation - perhaps add a fourth 'wrong' or go bold.</p> <p><em>"...deliberately/thoughtlessly/whatever holds up the third, and forth and fifth cars in the procession, by travelling in the middle of the road"</em></p> <p>I think it's option c: 'whatever', more specifically 'sensibly' because he was wanting to turn right, is entitled to ride wherever he likes along the carriageway and had already had his presence and rights ignored on the approach to a pinch-point. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121364 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:19:59 +0000 minus six 121364@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>there always seems to be some reason as to why it's acceptable</em></p> <p>every excuse under the sun</p> <p>including the sun itself </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121362 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:10:11 +0000 gdm 121362@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Having just watched it I have to say I think there is absolutely no way that the funeral should have been in any way a mitigating factor.</p> <p>Even if you say that he saw the first car, as others say, how long is reasonable for you to assume that no other cars are part of that procession?</p> <p>Also the passes are ridiculous and would be practically worthy of a video in their own right. Besides, if it's a procession, the cars are hardly likely to be speeding so why put pressure on what is clearly a busy road with obstacles and pinch points? You're hardly going to lose sight of it. I appreciate it's a difficult time, but I'm sure my loved ones would have been far more upset if they thought that on their Great Send Off I knocked someone down and then blamed it on the circumstances.</p> <p>Because it's always the circumstances, isn't it - never the driver being at fault. Whether it's eating sandwiches, stressful personal times (as in two twitter cases from today) or this "I was in a funeral procession, Guv'nor!" there always seems to be some reason as to why it's acceptable for a motorist to knock down a cyclist. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121359 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:49:43 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 121359@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>... holds up the third, and forth and fifth cars in the procession, by travelling in the middle of the road</em>"</p> <p>Of course without a rear facing camera it's actually impossible to know if he was the cause of the gaps, or if they were already there, so I guess we can't actually say one way or the other.</p> <p>Another interesting thing to know would be the speed of the cyclist, and the speed of the 'procession' going past him. The actual funeral cars look like they're shifting (and one definitely races to get through before the pinch).</p> <p>Quick question. Funeral procession proceeding down the street, with half of it over a junction the lights go red, should the traffic that then has a green light show respect by not going and letting the rest of the procession go through red? (you're right in that a cyclist is likely to 'get in the way' in a different way to a car which the procession won't be able to overtake, but what I guess I'm wondering is there <em>are</em> situations in which a procession could be allowed to proceed by the other traffic if it so chose and is it disrespectiful of that traffic not to let it so proceed?).</p> <p>I think we're all agreed that the driver and his passenger were morons, and needlessly put someone's life at risk (after all, they then wasted a lot more time shouting at the cyclist than they were losing seeing their loved one 'disappear up the road'). What we're at odds about is whether the cyclist was disrespectful (at all, or enough) to warrant the police rebuke - none of us are saying that he deserved what happened to him, and while it might look it, agreesing with the police statement is not necessarily saying that he should have been hit). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121357 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:43:25 +0000 minus six 121357@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>He is not aware of the importance of this event to the people concerned who are deeply upset watching their loved one disappear down the road</em></p> <p>Whether deeply upset or not, these two in the car feel empowered and entitled by their immediate circumstances to violently bully the cyclist to the ground, then follow it up toe to toe, for the heinous crime of being in their way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885&page=2#post-121355 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:31:03 +0000 amir 121355@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And by driving in a funeral procession, I don't expect to be given extra priority over and above that given by the Highway Code. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121354 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:29:47 +0000 amir 121354@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh my word - I've just seen the video - scary.</p> <p>I have driven in funeral processions before. Really whether anything, let alone a cyclist, holds me up and breaks the cortege seems frankly irrelevant and trivial. The speed of the convoy seems on the upper end of slow by comparison with the cyclist's speed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121353 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:20:04 +0000 Baldcyclist 121353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Or to put it in a different perspective, I see two incidents here in a sense unrelated.</p> <p>1. Car toots horn, then wilfully hits cyclist. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Can I be any stronger in my condemnation?</p> <p>2. Guy gets passed by the first two cars of a funeral procession, then deliberately/thoughtlessly/whatever holds up the third, and forth and fifth cars in the procession, by travelling in the middle of the road. He is not aware of the importance of this event to the people concerned who are deeply upset watching their loved one disappear down the road, while this guy frankly appears not to give a sh**. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Can I be any stronger in my condemnation? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121349 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:10:13 +0000 Baldcyclist 121349@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Your projection is revealing.<br /> "</p> <p>How so?</p> <p>"<br /> This having been done in no way excuses each successive driver's actions but to go further than that and say that the cyclist "held them up" or in some way was responsible for being taken out because of his mere presence on the highway is getting into Daily Fail territory - they couldn't pass because it wasn't safe, the cyclist was there already.<br /> "</p> <p>I didn't. Frankly, this is offensive, and f you had read my earlier comment you would know, ...actually I'm not going to bother repeating my earlier comment.</p> <p>Some previous comments had suggested he couldn't have known the other cars were part of the procession because of the gaps. All I was pointing out was that the gaps weren't already there, but instead caused by him - and in normal circumstances and in normal traffic caused perfectly reasonably by him - but in this instance, on seeing a funeral procession he should have shown respect, and stopped.</p> <p>And in that respect the Police comments are correct, and why the officer who made them has been given the support of his superiors who have backed the comment. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121347 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:01:36 +0000 custard 121347@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Me personally? I would have stopped at the side of the road and waited if I was on a bike</em></p> <p>I would give you that if it was a procession<br /> IMO it was cars tanking along at a brisk speed<br /> They pushed on at the pinch point too<br /> given the speed,I would be more likely to assume they were going to a 'pick up' or returning from a funeral </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121346 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:00:46 +0000 chdot 121346@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strike>Interacting</strike> OOPS EDIT Interesting difference of opinion of seeing <em>exactly</em> the same incident. </p> <p>I haven't watched the vid. </p> <p>Even more difficult/different when you are in the middle of it (not this one - just daily life). </p> <p>That's one problem with (subject of the week) the NWC. </p> <p>That starts with the notion 'we should all get on' but fails to recognise that most cyclists drive and most drivers don't cycle (apart from 'on holiday' - if at all.)</p> <p>So not really a surprise that 'those who do' felt marginalised and blamed for not (apparently) being as nice as drivers. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121344 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:58:56 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 121344@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist</p> <p>We're going to have to agree to disagree.</p> <p>I do agree absolutely that respect has to be shown, and I myself have done and will continue to do so (though I have to admit that that doesn't extend to stopping when a hearse goes past me and checking cars after it to see if anyone is wearing black and only carrying on once I start seeing 'normal' clothed drivers).</p> <p>But I disagree in the strongest sens ethat this rider was disrespectful, or that he caused the breaks in the cortege, or that anything he did could justify a suggestion that he contributed to the incident. The simple fact of the matter is the driver behind sounded his horn, knew the cyclist was there, and deliberately drove close enough to him that he could knock him off his bike, with the police suggesting that that's okay because the cyclist wasn't showing 'respect'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121340 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:33:32 +0000 Dave 121340@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@baldcyclist... </p> <p>Your projection is revealing.</p> <p>My first thought on watching the video (long before the rider was mown down from behind) was that there wasn't enough room to pass safely and the leading cars of the procession created the incident by skimming past when the road was shortly going to be obstructed.</p> <p>Isn't it ironic that funeral directors are pleading for patience from motorists but treat cyclists, the most vulnerable people on the road, with such blatant disregard?</p> <p>An alternative would have been for the lead car to wait behind the rider to give them the opportunity to notice the procession and potentially stop / turn off (or just go about their business). But cutting them up then getting angry that they've ended up in the middle? Dafties!</p> <p>This having been done in no way excuses each successive driver's actions but to go further than that and say that the cyclist "held them up" or in some way was responsible for being taken out because of his mere presence on the highway is getting into Daily Fail territory - they couldn't pass because it wasn't safe, the cyclist was there already.</p> <p><strong>The ultimate disrespect to the deceased here was to risk maiming or killing another human being.</strong> </p> <p>The idea that failing to leap off your bike and anxiously check an indeterminate number of cars for people wearing dark clothes is somehow disrespectful is laughable IMO. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121339 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:29:35 +0000 rust 121339@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Quote from the bbc article amir posted:<br /> <em><br /> "Other road users tend to be so impatient nowadays and their main concern is get to their end destination as quickly as possible, regardless of other traffic on the road," said Mr Collingwood.</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121338 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:29:13 +0000 minus six 121338@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The cortege is made up of a few stately cars, it seems unreasonable to me to expect ordinary cars thereafter to also be formally part of the procession.</p> <p>And if it is a respectful procession, they should be going at little more than walking pace.</p> <p>The driver was impatient, and knocked the cyclist over, and then his passenger threatened him.</p> <p>They should have both been charged. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121335 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:19:43 +0000 Baldcyclist 121335@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>And if there was a gap in time when no cars were coming past?</em></p> <p>Hearse goes past at 28s, 2nd one very shortly after. Cyclist then pulls into middle of lane (because of pinch point) holding up 3rd funeral car which then overtakes at 38s when he pulls back into left.</p> <p>Cyclist pulls into middle of road again to overtake parked car, partially holding up white Civic in the process which then overtakes on wrong side of road at 45s. He continues to pull out to centre of road and the horn goes at 49s. He then goes to ground at 51s.</p> <p>I'm sorry, but the gaps in the cortege are caused BY the cyclist. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10885#post-121333 Fri, 09 Aug 2013 14:09:44 +0000 amir 121333@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's more like it. Though, IMO 4 years driving ban is too short. </p>