http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Infrastructure blog en Fri, 15 May 2026 00:43:13 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-140997 Mon, 27 Jan 2014 19:31:01 +0000 fimm 140997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've noticed recently that there are plenty of people doing as I do, i.e. bringing a bike into Livingston in the morning to get from the station to their work; but not many people cycling to the station and taking a bike to Edinburgh (or leaving it at the station - there are more bikes outside my office than there are at Livingston North station). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-123599 Sun, 01 Sep 2013 10:35:35 +0000 Baldcyclist 123599@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Some of the paths in Livingston are quite narrow and would require some negotiation if you met another cyclist</em></p> <p>The footpaths on either side of the 'roundabout' road are narrow. I can't think of any other main 'core' paths that are less than 3m wide?</p> <p><em>when it would seem quicker to let the kids walk themselves?</em></p> <p>I remember being taken to school for the the first week or so in P1, after that I was on my own. Must admit I don't know what people do now in Livingston, but it does still seem that the school entrances for the most part are no where near the road network.</p> <p>An architect replied one of my tweets, apparently Livingston is built on the ;Radburn housing layout'</p> <p><a href="http://www.radburn.org/geninfo/history.html">http://www.radburn.org/geninfo/history.html</a></p> <p>"<br /> <strong>The primary innovation of Radburn was the separation of pedestrian and vehicular traffic</strong>. This was accomplished by doing away with the traditional grid-iron street pattern and replacing it with an innovation called the superblock. The superblock is a large block of land surrounded by main roads. The houses are grouped around small cul-de-sacs, each of which has an access road coming from the main roads. <strong>The remaining land inside the superblock is park area, the backbone of the neighborhood.</strong> The living and sleeping sections of the houses face toward the garden and park areas, while the service rooms face the access road.<br /> "</p> <p>Yep, that sounds pretty much like Livingston.</p> <p>And when we think of places in the Netherlands which are regarded as cycling friendly 'new towns', say like.... Houten, yep Radburn, or a more modern version of it.</p> <p><a href="http://greenwayneighborhoods.net/Why_Greenways_with_Cul-de-S.html">http://greenwayneighborhoods.net/Why_Greenways_with_Cul-de-S.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-123594 Sun, 01 Sep 2013 09:44:57 +0000 gembo 123594@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Some of the paths in Livingston are quite narrow and would require some negotiation if you met another cyclist (rare). Whereas the paths in Stevenage are a bit wider IIRC. The schools all have carparks for the teachers' cars but walking rates to school should be far higher than certain parts of Edinburgh but people will drive to school then drive on to work when it would seem quicker to let the kids walk themselves? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-123587 Sat, 31 Aug 2013 17:53:33 +0000 LaidBack 123587@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We moved to Livingston after leaving Glasgow. As a teen I walked more often than cycled. Blog there does mention the underpass question and it was sometimes safer to run across a busy main road than use these!<br /> My main use of my bike in fact was to get out of Livingston! It wasn't all bad of course. Good observations on how the path network there should have made cycling the obvious choice. The fact that it encouraged walking instead is no bad thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-123585 Sat, 31 Aug 2013 15:33:03 +0000 Baldcyclist 123585@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not sure I even like my conclusions....</p> <p>Even if it is never used, I say build it. Build it like Livingston!</p> <p><a href="http://baldcyclist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/even-if-it-is-never-used-i-say-build-it.html">http://baldcyclist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/even-if-it-is-never-used-i-say-build-it.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892&page=2#post-123565 Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:55:46 +0000 sallyhinch 123565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting. Was talking to someone about growing up in East Kilbride - he said he was 'never off the bike' - rode it to school &amp; everywhere, but 'you grow out of it, don't you' (he certainly looked as if he could do with a bit of cycling...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-123563 Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:35:41 +0000 crowriver 123563@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>An offline, smartphone friendly (i.e. zoomable) version would be fab. Stick it on the app store (and Android equivalent) for 69p. Job's a good 'un.</p> <p>One glance at the Spokes website tells you such a technological move might be some way off.</em></p> <p>Maybe someone with App development skills might like to suggest this to Spokes, and volunteer to do this job? I imagine the master files of the maps are in digital format.</p> <p>I may be old-fashioned but I like a paper map. No need for batteries, shock-proof, only a fiver to replace if you lose or damage it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-123559 Fri, 30 Aug 2013 21:32:33 +0000 Baldcyclist 123559@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've been banging on about this all day on Twitter, sorry ;) , went for a cycle...</p> <p>Can see results @Baldcyclist or #LiviCycle on Twitter.</p> <p>Blog post to follow... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121871 Thu, 15 Aug 2013 10:38:41 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 121871@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>That the SPOKES maps are still dead tree format only is somewhat frustrating.</em>"</p> <p>An offline, smartphone friendly (i.e. zoomable) version would be fab. Stick it on the app store (and Android equivalent) for 69p. Job's a good 'un.</p> <p>One glance at the Spokes website tells you such a technological move might be some way off. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121870 Thu, 15 Aug 2013 10:26:18 +0000 Baldcyclist 121870@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I can't see them scrapping the charges anytime soon, as they were introduced solely for income generation.</p> <p>The company which runs the Centre got it's self into a bit of financial strife by building the new bit 'The Elements' just as the financial crash hit, that combined with the fact they bought the 'McArthur Glen' not long before, and with all of the empty units there now is because of the financial crisis, they NEED the income.</p> <p>Was down there a few weeks ago, did seem busier than of late, maybe the recovery has started?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121856 Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:46:53 +0000 fimm 121856@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have not looked at the petition, but the car parking charges are fairly new - less than a year or so maybe. We go down from the office at lunchtime (by car) sometimes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121847 Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:58:49 +0000 chdot 121847@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Petition calling for the scrapping of car parking charges at the Livingston Centre<br /> "</p> <p><a href="http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/petition-to-call-for-the-scrapping-of-car-parking" rel="nofollow">http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/petition-to-call-for-the-scrapping-of-car-parking</a></p> <p>By a Labour MP. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121742 Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:42:09 +0000 Klaxon 121742@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That the SPOKES maps are still dead tree format only is somewhat frustrating. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121655 Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:16:55 +0000 Roibeard 121655@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's also a cycle map of Livingston itself.</p> <p>It's a 1998 Harvey Map, so there may be a more recent reprint, but it would be a good starting point.</p> <p>Available from Amazon - use the search on the left near the top of this page, and look for "Livingston for Cyclists".</p> <p>If you write to the council, they may have old copies available for free too, but that won't support CCE...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121616 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 22:06:14 +0000 crowriver 121616@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Surely all that hypothetical new Livingston resident needs to do is to buy a <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/spokes-maps/">Spokes cycle map of West Lothian</a>? </p> <p>DdF lives in West Lothian, as do a number of other Spokes members: their local knowledge has mapped all the cycle paths in the county, including Livingston!</p> <p>Must admit I found it dashed handy myself for getting to a few places in Uphall, Broxburn, and Livington without having to dodge quite so many cars. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121609 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:01:20 +0000 Baldcyclist 121609@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>As I'm sure you know, anyone can update OSM</em></p> <p>I have been over the last few days... ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121608 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 20:59:58 +0000 Baldcyclist 121608@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's not going to take long to do my comparison of Burntisland. That wee blue dotted line along the bottom, that is ALL of the shared infrastructure available to me to use in Burntisland, all 120 seconds of it:</p> <p><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BReDfLPCQAQFO5z.png"> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121607 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 20:59:13 +0000 chdot 121607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"but the OSM maps are much better than Google"</p> <p>As I'm sure you know, <em>anyone</em> can update OSM - which gets used by CycleStreets a few days later. </p> <p>This may be one other positive result from your investigations. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121605 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 20:50:42 +0000 Baldcyclist 121605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Those links again....</p> <p>"<br /> Imagine you have just moved to Livingston, dropped off your kids at school, and want to cycle to work in the Industrial estate. Options?</p> <p>Look at mapping options, get directions? Go from here to here <a href="https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366152944527220736/photo/1">https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366152944527220736/photo/1</a></p> <p>Local knowledge, oh don't have that, just moved. But here is the direct cycle able route anyway…. <a href="https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153232524902400/photo/1">https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153232524902400/photo/1</a></p> <p>This is @googlemaps route, not even close, a mile detour… <a href="https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153472556560384/photo/1">https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153472556560384/photo/1</a></p> <p>and @cyclestreets not much better, can't even drop pin on the paths, at least it does give a localish option.. <a href="https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153737439440896/photo/1">https://twitter.com/baldcyclist/status/366153737439440896/photo/1</a></p> <p>Although @cyclestreets is using @OSMScotland maps. It seems only to be picking up 'Cycle routes', and not paths which are designated as cycle routes.<br /> "</p> <p>Funnily enough, no word back from Google maps. Cyclestreets, and OSMScotland did respond. My suggested route should now be on Cyclestreets. THere are still many gaps, but the OSM maps are much better than Google. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121570 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:57:22 +0000 tammytroot 121570@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist, will look at links at home. Works net nanny forbids twitter. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121565 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:02:37 +0000 allytibbitt 121565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@baldcyclist I took the bairn to the Almond Valley Heritage centre using train/bike from Edinburgh a few months ago. </p> <p>Foolishly, I assumed there'd be some signposts, but this, combined with patchy mobile coverage meant I got a wee bit lost. </p> <p>Despite this I was also struck by how much potential there is in Livingstone, and think that a concerted effort to improve signage and promote some routes to places could make an impact.</p> <p>The paths are there - but it might take some effort to make it feel like a coherent network as it felt disjointed to me. </p> <p>It's probably eminently fixable by sorting the wee thinks like missing dropped kerbs in some some places and an absence of reassuring way markers. </p> <p>But it did occur to me that it's exactly the kind of place where an Innertube style map could work really well - probably better than in Edinburgh - as a joined up network is already in place. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121562 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:50:33 +0000 fimm 121562@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist, yes, a lunchtime meetup would be possible. (No headcam I'm afraid). I'll drop you a PM. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121533 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:54:10 +0000 Baldcyclist 121533@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@tammytroot Yes, I've noticed that too, looking at this wee project I thought I would look at some mapping, made some comments on Twitter....</p> <p>I've just made the images clickable links for space management.</p> <p>[EDIT links seem to be broken, need to go to meeting. I'll fix in a bit]</p> <p>"<br /> Imagine you have just moved to Livingston, dropped off your kids at school, and want to cycle to work in the Industrial estate. Options?</p> <p>Look at mapping options, get directions? Go from here to here <a href="pic.twitter.com/nO4F9xAFY8">pic.twitter.com/nO4F9xAFY8</a></p> <p>Local knowledge, oh don't have that, just moved. But here is the direct cycle able route anyway…. <a href="pic.twitter.com/SOX1S328dT">pic.twitter.com/SOX1S328dT</a></p> <p>This is @googlemaps route, not even close, a mile detour… <a href="pic.twitter.com/PkStkE5ze4">pic.twitter.com/PkStkE5ze4</a></p> <p>and @cyclestreets not much better, can't even drop pin on the paths, at least it does give a localish option.. <a href="pic.twitter.com/FoEoNY4qro">pic.twitter.com/FoEoNY4qro</a></p> <p>Although @cyclestreets is using @OSMScotland maps. It seems only to be picking up 'Cycle routes', and not paths which are designated as cycle routes.<br /> "</p> <p>Funnily enough, no word back from Google maps. Cyclestreets, and OSMScotland did respond. My suggested route should now be on Cyclestreets. THere are still many gaps, but the OSM maps are much better than Google. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121529 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:27:21 +0000 tammytroot 121529@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Really interesting. As a regular Livingston visitor I was unaware of this. These paths dont seem to show up on google maps cycling overlay. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121518 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:41:03 +0000 Baldcyclist 121518@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Gembo That would be the Route 75 path. It may look 'grim', but after the Centre that path runs along all of the 'posh' areas so is pretty safe, albeit maybe a bit secluded at night. I may use that rout back from the Centre to Livingston North.</p> <p>@Fimm What I wan't to do will probably take more than one day, so I could maybe do a weekday lunchtime time chat?</p> <p>One of the things I want to explore is the difference between 'new', and 'old' Livingston.</p> <p>I imagine my route will take me from Livingston North train station &gt; Knightsridge &gt; Houston Industrial Estate &gt; Ladywell &gt; Eilliburn &gt; Kirkton/Livi Village &gt; Howden &gt; Craigshill &gt; Centre &gt; Route 75 back up to Deans South &gt; Livingston North.</p> <p>So basically criss crossing North side of Livingston East to West. I want to do it all off of main roads, and preferably at least 95% on shared infrastructure.</p> <p>I also want to take a Strava trace of cycling / driving /bus from my old house to the Centre which is about 3 miles away. My old house is almost as far away from the Centre as is possible to be.</p> <p>'Old' council estate Livingston is very good, as soon as you set foot out the door you are on shared infrastructure. New Livingston, although connected to the 'core path network', I don't think (know) if they are as connected. I'm not sure every path is cycle infrastructure.</p> <p>When I started cycling in Edinburgh, the notion of 'pavement cycling' being bad was bazaar to me. Of course it makes sense now, because I know why, and there are more people, but when I lived in Livingston I was 'clipped in' before I left my front path </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121513 Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:49:53 +0000 fimm 121513@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist I'm not sure I could manage a weekend jaunt to Livingston... you've seen my <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10857">rant</a> about access to my particular office in Eliburn, which does not tie in with your experience, for good reasons I think. </p> <p>I've explored some of the local off road routes during lunchtime runs, (after a couple of years of always going the same way). Happy to contribute routes/experience if it helps. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121475 Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:10 +0000 gembo 121475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Paths in Livingston have various different feels. I used to take the almondell path from east Calder which is an interesting country park stretching over many miles around the almond river. Gets quite former industrial as presume several mills were in situ, also a feint whiff of sewage as the path network climbs up to midcalder water treatment centre then snakes sustrans special through the houses of Livingston towards the shopping centres, you then find fairly straight footpaths over grassy areas down to the new council buildings then round the back and on to the old village of Livingston with the farm and the shale oil museum, from there you have the fake stone circle in quite a gloomy valley but push on and you get to another country park which is my favourite as not down in the river valley but upon the moor, so more sun and indeed I always feel a few more people walking dogs etc. this route takes you quite quickly to the M8 pyramids.</p> <p>All interesting but tad lonely, gloomy, and tiny suggestion of mild peril at some points. For my work purposes now I can do all of this route much more quickly on the parallel roads. However, before I was familiar with routes and less used to traffic I found the paths very useful.</p> <p>Now I go lizzienbricenthen murieston then onto the back roads towards Harburn. Good thing about Livy is the easy access to quiet roads for longer cycling trips. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121472 Sun, 11 Aug 2013 09:36:55 +0000 sallyhinch 121472@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@baldcyclist - that is interesting as it does sound as if Livingstone was built along Dutch lines - the road layout you describe is reminiscent of what's being described here:</p> <p><a href="http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/making-a-1960s-street-grid-fit-for-the-21st-century/" rel="nofollow">http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/making-a-1960s-street-grid-fit-for-the-21st-century/</a></p> <p>Not sure I could make it to Livingston from Dumfries but I'd be interested to find out more.</p> <p>Edited to add:<br /> I do wonder whether, if all the infrastructure is in place, a concerted campaign could actually build significant cycling somewhere like Livingston - group rides, travel planning, training, advertising; all the things that we usually see as pointless or at best temporary in places where it isn't there. Or maybe we should just all move to Livingston... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121469 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 23:37:56 +0000 Baldcyclist 121469@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>a sneak peak....</p> <p>"<br /> ....</p> <p><strong>Livingston was built for people</strong></p> <p>Now I want to move onto the guts of this blog post, what I really want to talk about. Livingston's extensive, off road, direct, and well connected 'core path network'. I don't want to fill you with any fantasy of Livingston as some wondrous place where there is no crime, or deprivation, or social ill's. To many people, Livingston looks grim (the images used above may even confirm many a stereotype), I also sometimes think that when I go back too, forget about all of that though.</p> <p>I want to try and get across the idea that in an infrastructure sense, from a walking, or cycling perspective Livingston should be held up as a 'Model' town, and when we build new places, we should look to Livingston for inspiration, I honestly do think that the new town planners of that time were right on the money.</p> <p>....<br /> "</p> <p>It's not all positive, many questions still to be answered. Maybe some will be next week. Maybe those paragraphs will read differently after my trip..... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10892#post-121437 Sat, 10 Aug 2013 14:40:03 +0000 Baldcyclist 121437@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Actually, that article, and some comments from our very own Dave are quite freaky in some respects as I've been thinking about this for some time.</p> <p>I can comment from 40 years of living in Livingston, knowing the off road infrastructure intimately, and knowing the car routes intimately, that the path/cycle routes are more direct, and more linked than the on road routes.</p> <p>Livingston is essentially a grid, you have 2 main roads running North to South. One is a Dual Carriageway which links the M8, and A71, the other is a more minor road which links Adambrae with Deans. There are other main roads which bisect the estates East to West.</p> <p>Within those main roads there is an 'S' shaped minor road network which connects the various streets within the estates. There are no 'rat runs', every residential street ends in a dead end.</p> <p>The core path network follows the same 'grid' pattern as the main roads. They are in the most part invisible to the road network, as they run through the middle of all estates to the major work, and shopping areas. They are for the most part 3 meters wide and tarmaced. The residential streets are served with more paths (which are all shared use, 2m wide, and a mixture of paved and tarmac). The residential areas are mostly off road, streets with car parks at end.</p> <p>As I said earlier there are about 2/3 the number of car parking spaces as there are houses. These are not all used. In most cases it would be possible to get from any house in the town to a work area, or main shopping area at least as quickly as you could in a car.</p> <p>With regard to local shops, and primary schools, in the estates at least it is easier to walk than it is to drive (dead end streets (to cars) as mentioned above).<br /> Most of the primary schools do not have a drop off area. In fact my old primary school had 2 gated entrances no where near roads, and a 'back entrance' which was the teachers car park, and not available to the general public.</p> <p>In the case of Livingston, I honestly do believe it was built for walking/cycling, and not to travel freely by car.</p> <p>Of course, the new 'posh' estates (it still troubles me that I live in an 'equivalent' posh estate elsewhere), are car centric, drive straight up to your double garage.</p> <p>Again, I'm planning a trip to Livingston next week, any volunteers? </p>