CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Brought down by a tram track

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Brought down by a tram track http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Brought down by a tram track en Wed, 13 May 2026 03:03:43 +0000 I were right about that saddle on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-322843 Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:17:32 +0000 I were right about that saddle 322843@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Wingpig: Sacrifice at the Altar of Tram. They might as well build a first-aid station at Picardy Place. It's going to be carnage. wingpig on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-322830 Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:30:26 +0000 wingpig 322830@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Can't blame the dingbat, though it is unusual to have to be wary of a vehicle in front going through that section; it's usually impatient people behind presenting the most risk. gembo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-322827 Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:13:45 +0000 gembo 322827@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Caused it seems by a very bad cyclist?? SRD on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-322825 Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:48:09 +0000 SRD 322825@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ when the tram tracks bring down one of edinburgh's most experienced and sensible cyclists...something must be wrong? wingpig on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-322824 Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:31:05 +0000 wingpig 322824@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I shall finally get to email Spokes with my own tram-track slide-off. I was taking a different line to avoid an erratic dingbat and slid off on the second rail heading east past South St Andrew St. Fortunately, nowt but mild non-leaky scrapes to elbow, hip and ankle and the driver of the bus behind me was one of the cautious ones who leaves a gap in front of them. steveo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-302057 Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:36:50 +0000 steveo 302057@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ No. For same reasons above. Data breaches are only applicable to held information. We spent a lot time at the digital shredder just before GDPR came in. condor2378 on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-302056 Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:18:34 +0000 condor2378 302056@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Arellcat <blockquote>If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by a competent authority (e.g. Police Scotland), is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?</blockquote> No. It's only a data breach if the information is used in an unauthorised way (simplified version). It may be considered a Policy Breach, but footage can be unavailable for all sorts of reasons, CCTV HD corrupted, camera not working etc.. not a "Data Breach". <blockquote>If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by the data subject, is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them?</blockquote> No. For same reasons above. Data breaches are only applicable to held information. You can't breach on information you don't hold. @Gembo is correct. GDPR states 30 days to respond (or say why it'll take longer), not how long data must be retained. The best way to avoid a data breach is not to have the information in the first place, hence, footage deleted after 10 days is an acceptable answer. Source: Am Data Protection Officer. gembo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301999 Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:33:51 +0000 gembo 301999@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @arellcat, unlikely, they have a month to respond, responding with - we wipe the data after ten days sorry - is probably OK as long as they respond within the month. Hence the need to get yer skates on Arellcat on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301997 Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:21:48 +0000 Arellcat 301997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ technically with GDPR you have up to 30 days to obtain images in which you appear but some systems wipe after 10 days, or less. The CCTV's data controller has one calendar month in which to respond to a request for the footage, although the DPA 2018 states initially that it should be "without undue delay". But it is probably a Good Thing to request CCTV images as soon as possible. For example: Lothian Buses: "The systems in use on board buses work on a looped recording basis capable of storing 1 week or more of data, depending on the equipment in the bus, thus images or events recorded will not be available after the files have been overwritten, unless the images have been recovered by the CCTV Manager prior to being overwritten." Edinburgh Trams: "Our trams and premises are fitted with CCTV. Our Ticketing Services Assistants are equipped with personal CCTV. This is done to ensure that evidence of any act of violence and aggression or other inappropriate behaviour or of theft or criminal damage can be passed to the Police and the prosecuting authorities. We will always use all means to secure prosecution of anyone who commits a violent or criminal act on our trams or in our premises." and "We will only retain your information for the minimal period we deemed duly required, thereafter we will ensure any data is securely deleted from our system. Hard copy evidence received which securely destroyed using a reputable specialist company." (though this is in the context of non-CCTV personal information) Scotrail (e.g. for Haymarket): "CCTV footage – this is generally held for a maximum of 31 days from the time of recording, with the following exceptions: (i) if it relates to an accident, we will retain media for 3 years; (ii) if it relates to an operational incident, we will retain media for 5 years. Recordings obtained from body worn cameras are generally held for 24 hours, unless footage from a recording is required to be retained for any of the purposes set out in this privacy statement (such as, for example, the prevention and detection of crime or health and safety purposes) in which case it shall be held for so long as needed for these purposes." Questions: If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by a competent authority (e.g. Police Scotland), is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them? If a data controller has a privacy policy that says it retains CCTV images for 10 days, and within that time period the images are requested by the data subject, is it a data breach if the data controller does not preserve them? Tulyar on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301989 Sun, 24 Feb 2019 02:42:46 +0000 Tulyar 301989@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @jules878 move swiftly but the area outside Haymarket station is massively covered by CCTV but this is usually wiped on a periodic cycle - technically with GDPR you have up to 30 days to obtain images in which you appear but some systems wipe after 10 days, or less. I did look at Haymarket, on a ride-through check on the track conditions Westbound on Friday night, noting that the deadly steel road plates right in the place where most people are riding have now been on Princes Street and Shandwick Place for at least 2 YEARS. There are some nasty cracks opening up where the concrete abuts tarmac outside the Portrait Gallery by the Mound junction plus the massively sunken (6"+) section of Princes Street by the bus stops. Here's a potentially deadly strip of broken lumps of concrete across the junction where traffic turns from Morrison Street into W Maitland Street clattering as the bus runs over it <a href="https://ci-39730300063-56a9f1f9.http.atlas.cdn.yimg.com/flickr6/52921671@N08/39730300063/39730300063_720p.mp4?dt=flickr&x=1550970031&m=video%2Fmp4&fn=39730300063_720p&bt=0&a=flickr&d=cp_d%3Dwww.flickr.com%26cp_t%3Ds%26cp%3D792600246%26mid%3D39730300063%26ufn%3D39730300063_720p&s=2f9de8515d0227ee8125f575caac437a" rel="nofollow">https://ci-39730300063-56a9f1f9.http.atlas.cdn.yimg.com/flickr6/52921671@N08/39730300063/39730300063_720p.mp4?dt=flickr&x=1550970031&m=video%2Fmp4&fn=39730300063_720p&bt=0&a=flickr&d=cp_d%3Dwww.flickr.com%26cp_t%3Ds%26cp%3D792600246%26mid%3D39730300063%26ufn%3D39730300063_720p&s=2f9de8515d0227ee8125f575caac437a</a> Here's Friday's state of the official crossing line at Haymarket, where you can just make out that the poured rubber 'seal' around the rail has rippled and extruded to create a further hazard to cycle tyres crossing the rails <a href="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7902/47139347102_79c19fbf9d_h.jpg" rel="nofollow">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7902/47139347102_79c19fbf9d_h.jpg</a> Chris Oliver's study N=191 plus a further study of Toronto crashes highlights the detail that over 50% of falls happened when the cyclist was distracted by the presence/actions of other road users. 70% of the falls were caused by the front tyre turning and dropping into the groove, generally throwing the rider over the handlebars to plant their face into the tarmac, or break bones if they put their arms out to break the fall. a few will manage to tuck and roll, or lift the front of the bike up and plant the tyre back on the road. These falls tend to happen when the rider is crossing the rail too slowly and with too 'light' a grip on the handlebars and the forward momentum of the bike does not overcome the forces turning the tyre into the groove. The next most common fall is the side slide, which tends to drop you on to your hip or other part on your side when you go down. One disturbing detail at Haymarket is that the cycle lane is barely 1 metre wide between the rail and kerb and entirely INSIDE the 'dynamic envelope' required by the tram to get past obstructions.... so don't be in the cycle lane if a tram is coming up behind you. rbrtwtmn on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301967 Sat, 23 Feb 2019 14:36:30 +0000 rbrtwtmn 301967@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm curious - has anyone else been thinking that Haymarket would be much safer if the westbound traffic was officially funnelled into one lane, with hatchings or some similar markings funnelling people cycling to the left of the tracks, and people driving to the right (well away from the bike lane). My thinking is this: People cycling across the tracks continue to take risks, crossing at speed and at a very acute angle (almost in parallel). People continue to get really quite badly injured (as above - quite possibly gaining life-long if not life-defining injury). Further deaths remain quite possible. One main reason for people doing this is pressure of traffic on your tail/shoulder - we've all experienced the way that, free from traffic pressure, we relax and take it more easy. Currently that traffic pressure remains if you're in the left hand hook lane - you never know whether someone's right on your tail (quite possibly a bus, or someone driving their taxi as a weapon). One reason that people don't choose the left hand hooked cycle lane is because it takes you out of the traffic stream, and re-joining isn't particularly pleasant - not least when there are buses pulling in immediately afterwards. Motor traffic almost always joins to become a single stream straight after the main traffic signals (rather than remaining as two streams, side by side). The removal of the early-design stupid centreline just before hitting the tram tracks was helpful here. Therefore the consequences for traffic movement are minimal. This would help to protect the entry to the drop off area (where risk of a hook by a taxi remains). This would emphasise the risks, acting as warning signage - the current warning signs are utterly pathetic when you look at the number of people injured here. (I have a simple child's-drawing type image available, but nowhere to upload it to - can anyone help?) rodm on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301942 Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:05:03 +0000 rodm 301942@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The 2 legal cases are bing heard in May 2019. rbrtwtmn on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301796 Thu, 21 Feb 2019 00:16:10 +0000 rbrtwtmn 301796@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We need to remember that the magic paint at Haymarket improved matters somewhat... but from a very low starting point. Injuries continue. I passed an injured man recently (he had plenty of company, I wasn't being heartless). What happened to the legal case? jules878 on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301793 Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:21:16 +0000 jules878 301793@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ OK I will do. I promised to email the link to Spokes page (but discover I don't have her address! Silly me!). I hope to get from elsewhere, but if not I'll hand over info next Weds. I know accidents are common, and painful, but not always result in quite so much damage to the rider... Hopefully she will follow up. Rosie on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301791 Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:15:17 +0000 Rosie 301791@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @jules878 - That's too bad. All too common, I'm afraid. Please do ask her to email <a href="mailto:spokes@spokes.org.uk">spokes@spokes.org.uk</a> as well as to the Council. We keep a record of tram track crashes. jules878 on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-301790 Wed, 20 Feb 2019 23:06:43 +0000 jules878 301790@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Met one of my students today who came down on tram tracks at Haymarket (outside the station I think rather than Haymarket Yards). She has a broken arm, damaged/lost three teeth and suffered from concussion as a result. She's also got nasty grazes on her chin and face. (Not sure when this was, but sometime between Weds last week and today.) Have suggested she has a chat with Cycle Law Scotland, and uses the info on this Spokes page to report this serious accident to the Council. <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/public-transport/tram/" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/public-transport/tram/</a> Hopefully all the info/links/email addresses on this Spokes page are still current.... HankChief on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-266946 Fri, 17 Nov 2017 22:46:03 +0000 HankChief 266946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ A colleague came down on the tram tracks outside Haymarket this morning :-( They managed to do it in front of the Children In Need Rickshaw Challenge entourage so was well looked after by their medics... condor2378 on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-189258 Mon, 25 May 2015 09:34:28 +0000 condor2378 189258@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @PS is correct. The fall is very much already in progress at 6 seconds and the cover is in front. IIRC it felt like the front wheel started slipping out from under me to the right first then the wheel aligned and got caught in the track, but by this time I was already in an unrecoverable descent. I was more concerned with being run over from following vehicles as soon as I was down as the momentum dumped me in the left hand lane from the right hand lane. Thankfully drivers were following at a distance that day. PS on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-189256 Mon, 25 May 2015 09:19:11 +0000 PS 189256@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ BTW @condor2378 I think you were actually brought down by the sunken metal duct cover alongside the track at this point, which is directly under your bike after the fall. It is also part of the tram works though. I don't think so - you can see condor2378 start to fall before the bike reaches the duct cover. Momentum carries the bike onto it. At 6 seconds in you can see the duct cover ahead but the fall is already in progress. Tulyar on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=3#post-189183 Fri, 22 May 2015 18:19:43 +0000 Tulyar 189183@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Roughly right about expected life of rails and track structure IF they are built to a robust standard, and if there are no severe curves horizontal and vertical (or both together) Several of the new generation tram systems have had to replace track which has basically worn away/fallen apart. The quality of some of the Edinburgh embedded track is poor compared to that being delivered ahead of programme and within budget in Manchester. Infilled flangeway track can be installed by using the non-grooved version of the rail or cutting off the keeper and groove, but this also required a space at least 140mm deep the full width between the rails. The track designs currently specified for the UK all put a huge lump of reinforced high-strength concrete between the rails, making retro-fitting and other detail rather difficult and expensive. There are 3 (or 4) ways that a tram rail can bring down a cyclist, and not all are due to the groove. BTW @condor2378 I think you were actually brought down by the sunken metal duct cover alongside the track at this point, which is directly under your bike after the fall. It is also part of the tram works though. tk on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188990 Wed, 20 May 2015 17:48:57 +0000 tk 188990@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We had one of the tram managers give a talk at the IET last week. A very interesting fact is that the trams apply grease to the track in the same way they apply braking sand. Some of the corners are quite tight and the tram puts the grease down to avoid vibration between the wheel flange and the track. All the more slippy for cyclists! The reason they haven't been able to do track inserts is the track has a flange on the other side to the actual rail so there isn't a product that would fit. The track is the Rheda City track form. They may look at using cycle friendly track for the extensions if there is enough pressure from cycling groups. It'll be 20 years before we see any track changes on existing segments as that's the design life (with the track bed lasting 50 years and bridges 120 years). They're also going to be affected by the 20mph speed limit! condor2378 on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188965 Wed, 20 May 2015 13:49:00 +0000 condor2378 188965@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @chdot I have helmetcam footage of coming off turning right from the bottom of Lothian Road going onto Princes Street from about a year ago in the wet, and caused by my taking a silly small angle over it. Not happened again since, touch wood. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3oJeQ7lnag" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3oJeQ7lnag</a> algo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188926 Wed, 20 May 2015 10:07:21 +0000 algo 188926@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I think ARobComp does.. chdot on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188923 Wed, 20 May 2015 10:04:08 +0000 chdot 188923@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Thanks, esp for old thread link containing <a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/cyclist-helmet-cam-video-of-tram-track-crash-1-3516685" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/cyclist-helmet-cam-video-of-tram-track-crash-1-3516685</a> Does anyone know guy who fell off/took vid? algo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188915 Wed, 20 May 2015 09:26:12 +0000 algo 188915@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ wingpig is referring I think to this thread… <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13329" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13329</a> (although I recall then that pictures were automatically resized - hence my photos looking stupidly big now) algo on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188914 Wed, 20 May 2015 09:22:41 +0000 algo 188914@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ This video I think: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAVD4EXb8_M" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAVD4EXb8_M</a> wingpig on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188913 Wed, 20 May 2015 09:19:48 +0000 wingpig 188913@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ There's the bloke who skidded off with a loud wail in the right-hand lane going west at Haymarket - I've seen it posted on here, but can't recally exactly where, though I think I went to look at the site afterwards to see if there was any other metalwork present and then posted a clip of the tracks. This thread? <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11420" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11420</a> Bound to be one here somewhere: <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11324" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11324</a> chdot on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-188882 Tue, 19 May 2015 19:34:34 +0000 chdot 188882@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Does anyone know of any footage taken by falling riders? I know there's Dave's 'mishap' by Waverley Bridge from a few years ago, but around Haymarket would be better. allebong on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-122429 Tue, 20 Aug 2013 18:01:25 +0000 allebong 122429@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Went over the tramlines at Haymarket Yards for the first time in the wet (well, drizzle) and it was much more disconcerting even on very wide tyres. Not looking forward to when it's wet/icy/slushy/snowy/windy and dark and you have traffic around too. Recipe for disaster doesn't really cut it. DaveC on "Brought down by a tram track" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10912&page=2#post-122356 Tue, 20 Aug 2013 09:44:25 +0000 DaveC 122356@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Looks like the huge bollards are being removed from York Place. Less and less contractors these days and two lanes open occassionally, on each way to Elm Row Roundabout.