http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Shared Use - the debate (begins) continues en Thu, 14 May 2026 21:00:53 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-373592 Sun, 25 Feb 2024 16:27:44 +0000 chdot 373592@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Jones said this suggested National Highways did not know what they had built for cycling and walking. “In my view this is a systemic failure of National Highways to apply its own standards, which I know from experience of reviewing schemes is leading to poor provision on the ground.”</p> <p>“They design for shared use, which means in reality a pavement you’re allowed to cycle on. It has few of the attributes of a good cycle route.”</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/jul/27/national-highways-accused-of-systemic-failure-on-cycling-provision-in-england" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/jul/27/national-highways-accused-of-systemic-failure-on-cycling-provision-in-england</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-367007 Sun, 05 Mar 2023 23:34:23 +0000 stiltskin 367007@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What the reports of the case above seem to ignore is that the pedestrian admitted making ‘light contact’ with the cyclist. i.e. she actually pushed her into the road. That is why she was done for manslaughter. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-366997 Sun, 05 Mar 2023 17:58:13 +0000 chdot 366997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>According to the judge, the pavement was 2.4 metres wide “at the relevant point” and was a shared path. However, the police said it wasn’t clear whether it was or wasn’t a shared path. If the police can't be definitive, what chance of any pedestrian or cyclist making the correct call? I’m also not sure about this 2.4 metres’ business. It doesn’t look to me as if the judge took into account the lamp post or road sign “at the relevant point” that would have reduced the usable space for the ladies for several metres either side of it. The CCTV clearly shows Auriol walking in a straight line with enough space for the cyclist to avoid her, except for the that lamp post / road sign. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://marmitediva.blogspot.com/2023/03/a-picture-of-auriol-grey.html?m=1" rel="nofollow">https://marmitediva.blogspot.com/2023/03/a-picture-of-auriol-grey.html?m=1</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-366903 Thu, 02 Mar 2023 14:35:16 +0000 chdot 366903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>he said the pavement was 2.4 metres wide at the relevant point, describing it as a “shared path on the ring road”. </p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/02/pedestrian-jailed-manslaughter-cyclist-fall-car-huntingdon" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/02/pedestrian-jailed-manslaughter-cyclist-fall-car-huntingdon</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-352813 Mon, 12 Jul 2021 21:38:26 +0000 boothym 352813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Suppose it might be a problem if you have a gaggle of folk getting on/coming off, but it's about 3.5m wide and you should be aware of the hazard - good sightlines and either the bus will have gone past you, or in the other direction you're already taking care and slowing for the junction anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-352809 Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:30:28 +0000 Baldcyclist 352809@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I remember suggesting that path be widened in 2012/13.</p> <p>Fife council cycling officer told me it would be impossible... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-352801 Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:31:39 +0000 chdot 352801@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Do they have safety audits in Fife?</p> <p>Only 2 buses an hour, good sightlines. </p> <p>But… </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-352800 Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:21:20 +0000 Tulyar 352800@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot How on earth did that pass a safety audit?</p> <p>Major hazards with this design as cyclists can ride through exactly where passengers get off a bus. I've a report of a crash exactly like this in Kingston. A direct broadside as the passenger stepped off the bus right in front of the cyclist who had no deflection to slow them down or move them clear of the bus </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-352553 Wed, 07 Jul 2021 00:01:32 +0000 boothym 352553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just in case anyone is coming through to Fife - the widened pavement between Burntisland and Kinghorn pictured above is now complete. No signs or markings though. Street View captured it under construction in March if you want a look: <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/szqVjGAzgChFrUUDA" rel="nofollow">https://goo.gl/maps/szqVjGAzgChFrUUDA</a></p> <p>At the Burntisland end, you either need to rejoin the main road or turn onto a path that goes through a play park connecting to residential streets. There were complaints from nearby residents about the route, who think there's going to be lots of fast cyclists coming through and mowing down kids and dog walkers...</p> <p><a href="https://goo.gl/maps/qdjZQhT7nsy67SPT7" rel="nofollow">https://goo.gl/maps/qdjZQhT7nsy67SPT7</a> - the path is now a metre wider with a dropped kerb, and only the swings and see-saw remain. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-351130 Fri, 28 May 2021 17:49:16 +0000 boothym 351130@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's finished from Kinghorn to this junction: <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/tF7ffKQ9PdA1PTGt9" rel="nofollow">https://goo.gl/maps/tF7ffKQ9PdA1PTGt9</a> (except at the bus stop in chdot's photo above)</p> <p>From there to the west it's traffic lights, but one lane is coned off so you can walk/cycle in it.</p> <p>There is a dropped kerb about 100m or so past that junction so you can rejoin. The junction is meant to be a raised table but it's not been added yet. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-351120 Fri, 28 May 2021 13:40:28 +0000 CycleAlex 351120@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Does anyone know if the shared use route on the A921 above is finished? Tempted to venture into Fife tomorrow but don't fancy cycling on the A921 (especially if narrowed by roadworks...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-350892 Fri, 21 May 2021 16:02:02 +0000 chdot 350892@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>“I hate that,” Nepveu said. “[The signs] are not really new but that they are used a lot is new. A lot of cyclists take their cycling seriously, it is a mode of transport, not playing. It is a lot of stress for pedestrians and cyclists when you have to share your place.”</p> <p>Nepveu said the union was in talks with the municipality to see if there might be a rethink. “If cyclists cannot drive through the city centre, this has consequences for the attractiveness of cycling because cycle routes around the centre become congested, for example at Centraal station,” he said. “The cycle paths around the centre are mostly along motorways. There is noise and stench from cars, and there are many traffic lights.”</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/21/trouble-cyclists-paradise-amsterdam-accused-favouring-pedestrians" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/21/trouble-cyclists-paradise-amsterdam-accused-favouring-pedestrians</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-349937 Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:37:22 +0000 boothym 349937@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Close - it's the other side of Burntisland on the road to Kinghorn :) Will be useful for getting between the towns, with the caravan park in between as well. The alternative being a 40 mph road or a 1.8m pavement (technically legal as it's a core path).</p> <p>It had folk on the local Facebook group moaning that two buses will hit each other with it was being reduced to 6.5m; plus the usual potholes, road tax, etc. on the council's page: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/FifeCouncil/posts/4030281556982388" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/FifeCouncil/posts/4030281556982388</a></p> <p>@chdot The plans don't show anything different for the bus stop, I'm assuming they are just waiting until some more tarmac arrives to fill it in. </p> <p>But the plans indicate there will be some red tarmac across the junction in that photo, along with give way lines on the pavement. Quite a wide junction, hopefully it doesn't cause issues... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-349934 Fri, 23 Apr 2021 22:20:15 +0000 crowriver 349934@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Is that the road between Aberdour and Burntisland? Or am I wide of the mark?</p> <p>Useful if so. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-349893 Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:00:00 +0000 chdot 349893@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>New widened pavement (Fife)</p> <p>Expecting different coloured infill at bus stop</p> <p><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51132934941_e6db466192_z.jpg"></p> <p><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51133714544_8700f8cdb4_z.jpg"> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289169 Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:03:52 +0000 neddie 289169@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@rbrtwtmn</p> <p>I agree what I wrote (quickly) could have been worded better. However, I deliberately did not use the words "hit by motor vehicle" as that removes driver agency and becomes one for the 'Sentient Beings' thread.</p> <p>An extreme view might be that the driver took the decision to use a potentially lethal piece of machinery <em>when they got in the motor vehicle</em> and that it doesn't really matter whether the pedestrian/victim was "at fault" or not.</p> <p>In any case, the figures I really wanted (but couldn't remember offhand) were those for pedestrians "killed by" driver or cyclist <em>on the pavement</em> (where surely the pedestrian cannot be at fault in 99.9% of cases). </p> <p>For drivers, that's around 80 pedestrians killed on the pavement, and for cyclists I believe it would be zero. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289146 Sun, 19 Aug 2018 13:56:45 +0000 crowriver 289146@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"they are as righteous as if you were threatening to remove their right to vote, or to send them to prison without a trial."</p> <p>That's the power of marketing. The motor car manufacturers have done a really good job of brainwashing the majority of the population into believing stuff like this. A nice earner for them that 70% plus of people drive regularly... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289145 Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:58:07 +0000 Rosie 289145@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>PS, I get a good/neutral reaction generally when using a bell. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289144 Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:57:21 +0000 Rosie 289144@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I posted this on Facebook and have had someone saying "It's a human right to have a choice to drive.." I don't think that comes into the UN Charter on Human Rights!</p> <p>However that is how many motorists think and they are as righteous as if you were threatening to remove their right to vote, or to send them to prison without a trial. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289143 Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:48:19 +0000 rbrtwtmn 289143@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>except drivers killed 400 pedestrians last year, whereas cyclists killed 3 (usually it is 1 or 2).</blockquote></p> <p>A correction on this point... (I think it's important enough to pick up on so I hope you'll forgive me doing so). The statistics show deaths and injuries and collision types, but *not* cause. So this would be significantly more accurate if it read:</p> <p><em>"except 400 pedestrians died last year because they were hit by motor vehicle, whereas only 3 (usually it is 1 or 2) people died after colliding with someone on a bicycle."</em> </p> <p>The press is far too keen on converting/twisting the statistics and I think it's important we're really careful with this. </p> <p>Search "cyclists caused deaths pedestrians uk" on Google and immediately some deeply misleading articles/headlines are available. Minor injury becomes 'maimed' and 'collision with' becomes 'caused' (unless it's about car use when 'caused' is downgraded to 'in collision with'). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289054 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 13:26:02 +0000 crowriver 289054@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's very disappointing, if unsurprising to see this article which panders to popular prejudices (mostly held by motorists) instead of looking at the facts. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289052 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 13:06:11 +0000 Roibeard 289052@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@neddie - probably a subeditor addition, as it has nothing to do with the rest of the content!</p> <p>Clickbait rules...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289048 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 12:53:22 +0000 paulmilne 289048@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I do use my bell, as early as possible when approaching someone from behind, but not too early they might not hear it. The fine line is recognised by practice. I usually thank people when they move over to try to diffuse any sense of entitlement. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=8#post-289047 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 12:49:36 +0000 neddie 289047@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Pedestrians may be wary of drivers, but cyclists can pose them a bigger menace</em></p> <p>Right, except drivers killed 400 pedestrians last year, whereas cyclists killed 3 (usually it is 1 or 2).</p> <p><em>jaywalking</em></p> <p>There is no such thing as jaywalking in this country. One may walk across the road anywhere, or even along it (except motorways, or where specifically banned). Jaywalking is a derogatory term invented by the US motor industry.</p> <p><em>embolden the timid</em></p> <p>You mean make ordinary human beings feel safe? Or do you mean "embolden" as in dare to use the rightful carriageway for motor vehicles.</p> <p>A clickbait article very light on actual facts &amp; evidence </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-289046 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 12:49:33 +0000 wishicouldgofaster 289046@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I cycle through Davidsons Mains Park, Inverleith park and the Silverknowes path and always ring my bell for both peds and slower cyclists. Almost without exception there is usually a friendly exchange of thank you between us.</p> <p>Only once I have had grief and that was after a football match heading down McLeod St to Roseburn on the road. I told the guy complaining that I was just trying to keep everyone safe including him. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-289043 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 11:32:38 +0000 EdinburghCycleCam 289043@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Sound your bell and a walker might welcome it as a helpful warning that avoids them being startled as you ride by. But equally, it could interpreted by others as an impatient demand to move out of the way."</em></p> <p>This is my experience too - I find that more often than not, using my bell is taken as a "Get out of my way", particularly on Portobello prom for some reason.<br /> I'd much rather slowly cycle behind someone until it's clear to pass, or say "excuse me" if there's a line of pedestrians taking up the whole path (which is also very common).</p> <p>That, and of course the fact that probably 50% of the time that I do use my bell, people either ignore it / don't hear, or walk into my path as they're trying to see where the bell sound is coming from. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-289040 Fri, 17 Aug 2018 11:13:27 +0000 chdot 289040@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/alastair-dalton-cyclists-and-pedestrians-need-help-learning-to-share-space-1-4785260" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/alastair-dalton-cyclists-and-pedestrians-need-help-learning-to-share-space-1-4785260</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-287944 Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:51:29 +0000 chdot 287944@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Different sort of shared use, but...</p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/annalangside/status/1023558608716541962?s=21" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/annalangside/status/1023558608716541962?s=21</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-282023 Mon, 07 May 2018 13:46:25 +0000 unhurt 282023@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>On a path in a park!</em></p> <p>"cyclists should expect to be pursued by giants"? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10924&page=7#post-282018 Mon, 07 May 2018 10:57:59 +0000 Lezzles 282018@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was in Washington DC last week and it had a very similar set up in and around the Mall area. I rented a bike and had a lovely day pootling around museums and memorials with almost no issues sharing the (v wide) paths with pedestrians. </p>