http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Fracking support tipped to soar across Lothians" en Wed, 01 Jul 2026 23:53:50 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-303871 Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:30:23 +0000 acsimpson 303871@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The headline writer on this one made me chuckle:</p> <p><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47711440">Scotland Takes a Different Fracking Path</a></p> <p>Sadly the article itself appears to have it's headline updated but the home page links are still the same. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-232072 Tue, 27 Sep 2016 10:08:34 +0000 chdot 232072@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://dropping.theferret.scot/ineos-pr-fracking-gas-boat" rel="nofollow">https://dropping.theferret.scot/ineos-pr-fracking-gas-boat</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-232071 Tue, 27 Sep 2016 10:08:02 +0000 steveo 232071@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The chipwrapper really does attract a special kind of idiot to its comments. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-232069 Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:50:20 +0000 chdot 232069@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/fracking-ban-call-as-us-shale-gas-shipment-arrives-in-scotland-1-4241150" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business/fracking-ban-call-as-us-shale-gas-shipment-arrives-in-scotland-1-4241150</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-201667 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:17:58 +0000 chdot 201667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/2000-gas-protesters-link-hands-over-forth-road-bridge-1-3914412" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/2000-gas-protesters-link-hands-over-forth-road-bridge-1-3914412</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-201666 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:12:03 +0000 chdot 201666@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/business/energy/grangemouth-owner-snaps-up-12-north-sea-gas-fields-1-3914421" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/business/energy/grangemouth-owner-snaps-up-12-north-sea-gas-fields-1-3914421</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-199479 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:14:13 +0000 kaputnik 199479@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>An alternate headline might be "<em>report paid for by company wanting to set fire to coal beds under the Firth of Forth unsurprisingly recommend that it's a fabulous idea and would make everyone stinking rich.</em>"</p> <p>Biggar Economics was founded by one Graeme Blackett, listed as it's company director and economist. I'm assuming he's the same Graeme Blackett who was formerly advisor to Big Eck. A quick google suggests seems to be quite involved in writing about the oil/gas sector and he comes across as a bit of an "it's Scotland's oil" type. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-199456 Tue, 22 Sep 2015 09:12:49 +0000 chdot 199456@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Economists claim coal gasification 'could generate £13bn'</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34319104" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34319104</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982&page=2#post-168124 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 19:59:35 +0000 chdot 168124@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> London, 14 October 2014: New research by the Carbon Tracker Initiative (CTI) today reveals that 99% of sampled coal, oil and gas companies recognise climate change poses a risk to their businesses – but perpetuate investor uncertainty with only 7% of companies providing evidence of adequately integrating this risk into corporate project and capital expenditure assessments.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.carbontracker.org/in-the-media/fossil-fuel-companies-found-paying-lip-service-to-climate-risks" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbontracker.org/in-the-media/fossil-fuel-companies-found-paying-lip-service-to-climate-risks</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168104 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:23:01 +0000 I were right about that saddle 168104@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@twq</p> <p>Ethene is indeed the IUPAC name for ethylene. 'Feedstock' being an imprecise term I think even I can give pedantry a miss. I'd make the chain...natural gas fractionated to give ethane, which is steam cracked to give ethene which is polymerised over a Ziegler-Natta catalyst to give 'polyethene'.</p> <p>The steam cracking takes a lot of heat, which is where the shale gas might come in handy. Unless it's ethane-rich which it may be for all I know. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168103 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:12:47 +0000 Boff 168103@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@IWRATS<br /> "Perhaps they'll use the shale gas as fuel for the cracker plant?"</p> <p>I did say that in my post:<br /> "...they wont be using the gas for fuel but for cracker feedstock..."<br /> The product of the cracker (ethene/ethylene or propene/propylene depending on your process) is then used to produce the polymerised material. </p> <p>Ineos have ordered an ethane tank to take imported gas so I'm assuming that both the shale gas that is to be imported and that which is to be extracted locally is rich in ethane. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168097 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:00:58 +0000 kaputnik 168097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ineos is going to be importing shale gas ethane from the US to feed its polywhotsits plant at Grangemouth. This is instead of / in addition to the domestic production out the North sea. The UK Government is guaranteeing £230m of loans to allow them to finance this.</p> <p>I believe Boff is correct that, (regardless of what actually lies under the ground), Ineos is currently primarily concerned with securing supplies of ethane, not methane for fuel gas production. That's not to say it won't do that in the future, or sell the rights to someone else, but at Grangemouth at least they are (currently) only a chemicals producer.</p> <p>Danny Alexander - chief Liberal Democrat to the Treasury - was quoted as saying the ethane import investment was "fantastic news for Scotland's economic future, and for the UK's energy security". He obviously isn't up on his basic chemistry as Ineos, Grangemouth and Ethane are nothing to do with energy production or security. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168096 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:54:21 +0000 twq 168096@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@IWRATS I think you're right, although the feedstock is ethane, not ethene. Ethene is ethylene (feedstock for polyethylene etc.).<br /> My god, I'm such an unbearable pedant. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168095 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:50:16 +0000 I were right about that saddle 168095@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Boff</p> <p>Are you sure? Shale gas is primarily methane, and the feedstock for polyethylene is ethene. Converting methane to ethene is a laboratory party trick rather than a commercial process to my knowledge.</p> <p>Perhaps they'll use the shale gas as fuel for the cracker plant? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168085 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:23:26 +0000 Ed1 168085@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It does not really matter what its costs to produce in respect to reducing heating bill. </p> <p>It will be sold for what can be sold at even if came out the ground for free (which of course would be impossible). It will make a margin difference depending on the infrastructure to move it. The less mobile, the greater disparity could be created in local market so could in theory reduce prices? If was completely mobile would make almost no difference as would only increase world supply by such a small amount would barley impact in price and people all around the world would share this small reduction in price even though the people near it suffered most of the costs, the externality pollution. </p> <p>The benefits that shale may provide is some employment, the disadvantages environment and possibly losses some incomes.</p> <p>The profits will go to international companies that may or may not pay a lot of tax on its profit in the UK. There will be tax and duty benefits for the UK.</p> <p>In terms of reduced bills for heating, if the governments reduced tax, or the privately collected “taxes” the government mandate. The charges on heating are in effect tax and spend, as its mandated what collected for and mandated what spent on. Its get around rules on tax and spend but for all intends purposes is the same.</p> <p>Unless the shale gave is very immobile, then don’t see much in way of savings. If the governments wanted the government would reduce their charges in domestic energy</p> <p>I remember when being unemployed 8 years ago and being surprised that I had to pay extra charge on my electricity to go people that were better of. That’s administrations for you. </p> <p>There may be winners and losers, but more of the winners will be external to Scotland. Mps and people like these things as can give favours from things, in deferred favours or also get a favour exchange get a favour at later date in a different thing so could swap it for a contract job or favour in completed unrelated thing on the favour 600 index-)</p> <p>In respect to Scotland using more energy than it produces I am not sure this is the case. So even if we applied a frame that suggested each area should be energy sufficient, Scotland would not need to justify shale. The frame that Scotland should produce as much energy as uses we do not apply to cars electronics or other manufactured goods that produce pollution.</p> <p>Even if we apply the frame about off shoring (to other countries) dirty activity in energy this not the case if we include North Sea. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168074 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:40:38 +0000 Stickman 168074@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Boff: thanks, didn't know that. </p> <p>Ultimately it will still feed through to lower prices or increased production of *something*. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168072 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:29:31 +0000 Boff 168072@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure that extraction of shale gas in the Central Belt has much to do with domestic fuel and energy supply. The major player around here is Ineos. They have bought licenses for substantial areas around the refinery and Forth estuary and they wont be using the gas for fuel but for cracker feedstock to manufacture polyethylene, polypropylene etc. The "we'll lower your heating bills" card will no doubt be played to get the public onboard but in reality shale gas from this area will make no difference to energy bills as it will simply replace feedstock gas from BP's Kinneil facility that was never destined for the National Grid. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168056 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:23:03 +0000 twq 168056@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot - these are obviously linked issues, but I don't think they should be tackled together. There is demand for gas, which oil &amp; gas companies try and supply. The debate about whether or not we should use the gas is primarily political. So while I think we should be moving swiftly away from fossil fuel reliance, we cannot entirely blame the industry for supplying it. Neither should we ban domestic production only to import the same volumes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168052 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:14:24 +0000 chdot 168052@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"It's also not free to extract, it will cost a lot of initial investment to get it going and if it isn't profitable, it won't be extracted."</p> <p>And as the Governor of the Bank of England said -</p> <p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/13/mark-carney-fossil-fuel-reserves-burned-carbon-bubble" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/13/mark-carney-fossil-fuel-reserves-burned-carbon-bubble</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168048 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:09:40 +0000 steveo 168048@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>@steveo it's not a billion years, it's more like 300 million years. So your point is totally invalid ;) </em></p> <p>:P</p> <p>whats a geological epoch or two between friends. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168047 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:08:35 +0000 kaputnik 168047@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I thought "fuel poverty" was a big issue?<br /> </em></p> <p>It is, but shale gas isn't a magic bullet that will bring domestic energy bills tumbling down.</p> <p>There is the issue of wholesale gas prices being linked on the markets to more volative oil prices. There are UK and EU goverment taxes/levies added to bills. There are the fixed costs of increasing investment in the national grid as it has to evolve from one linking big coal/nuclear fueled generators and energy-intense industries to a much more distributed one, and the profits to be paid to all the private distribution and grid companies. There is our energy markets dominated by big players who act - for want of a better word - like a cartel (and again more private profits required to be paid for). There is a new generation of nuclear power (and private profits the government has guaranteed) to be paid for.</p> <p>Shale gas might do something about the former, but it won't do much about any of the others. Shale gas won't be free to extract and it will cost a lot of initial investment to get it going. If it isn't profitable, it won't be extracted. I believe the costs of starting up the US fracking industry were only a sensible commercial proposition because at the time world gas prices were high enough to justify it. That may not now be the case for a UK fracking industry now that the US has managed to drop world coal and gas prices so significantly. (Apparently US coal is being dumped on the cheap into Europe as it's not required at home, resulting in problems for domestic producers (wonder why the Scottish opencast industry has all but collapsed and what few deep mines there are left in England are being shut/run down?) and an increase in CO2 emmissions here as energy generators take advantage of the cheap fuel supply)</p> <p>It's convenenient for the vested interests of government to play the "we'll lower your heating bills" card to try and get people to support fracking. But it's just not that simple and there's much more they could be doing to reduce domestic fuel bills without unertaking a pretty contentious practice that could have some pretty dire water quality / ground stability consequeces under the most populated part of Scotland. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168046 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:07:39 +0000 Ed1 168046@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Energy prices are global or European depend on how mobile the source. The more mobile the more global the price is, in respect to energy prices cant see it making a huge local difference. Countries such as Russia may subsidizes local energy costs can’t really see the uk doing much in this area. Uk oil is more expensive for the consumer in the uk than some countries its sold to. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168043 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:51:06 +0000 twq 168043@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo it's not a billion years, it's more like 300 million years. So your point is totally invalid ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168041 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:45:48 +0000 Stickman 168041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The volume of gas coming out the US has smothered the value of the stuff, </em></p> <p>Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't the point and benefit of shale the cheaper energy costs for consumers, not tax revenue?</p> <p>I thought "fuel poverty" was a big issue? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168020 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 09:16:19 +0000 steveo 168020@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The UK can't benefit from taxable revenue created by domestic producers if it imports gas. </em></p> <p>Yet.</p> <p>The gas has been there for a billion years, another decade won't make much differnce. If the price were to recover the value of the taxable revenue would increase. Mean time there is always import tariffs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168019 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 09:08:43 +0000 twq 168019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo there's a small aspect you are overlooking. The UK can't benefit from taxable revenue created by domestic producers if it imports gas. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168018 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:41:19 +0000 steveo 168018@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I really don't understand the rush to get at the shale. The volume of gas coming out the US has smothered the value of the stuff, to the point where its cheaper for Grangemouth to import gas from across the Atlantic than pull it from the pipeline the refinery is attached to.</p> <p>Wait for the US stuff to run down, the price to improve and if we still need or want it then the gas will be worth extracting. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-168016 Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:51:23 +0000 chdot 168016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/ineos-strikes-new-fracking-deal-in-scotland-1-3571283" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/ineos-strikes-new-fracking-deal-in-scotland-1-3571283</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-158449 Tue, 01 Jul 2014 14:59:15 +0000 crowriver 158449@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The other day on Radio Scotland's Newsdrive (really I was only tuning in to avoid wall to wall Glasto/WW1) they had FoE Scotland stating they thought not many companies would be interested in frtacking in Scotland, due to complex planning constraints, and the fact there's not actually much gas/oil in the Scottish shale deposits. He thought it more likely the north of England would attract interest from investors. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10982#post-158441 Tue, 01 Jul 2014 14:39:02 +0000 kaputnik 158441@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not sure how the Chipwrapper thinks the Lothians will be in for a goldrush. The compensation scheme set (by Westminster) means money paid to communities is a pittance (£20,000 per well to a "relevant community body") and only for horizontal wells. Deep wells over 300 feet would require no compensation!</p> <p>The fuel duty will go to the exchequer, not the local community, and the companies like Cuadrilla that are exploiting the wells are listed on the London stock exchange and will send their bounties to their shareholders (or for the Cuadrilla example, are 82% owned by a US hedge fund and Australian mining company with the rest held by the management).</p> <p>I'd happily wager that the absence of a substantial fracking industry of any scale in the UK will mean a lot of the initial expertise will be coming from elsewhere, and much like opencast coal mining there will be negligible well paid local employment. Wells will be drilled and established, capped off for production at which point they move on to the next well and require only a skeleton maintenance staff (much of which can be done remotely). There's no need to build up a substantial base of local employment like a deep coal or shale mine would need.</p> <p>Sceptical - moi? </p>