CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line en Tue, 07 Apr 2026 17:37:20 +0000 twq on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128619 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:43:52 +0000 twq 128619@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @DaveC @kaputnik I send one asking the same, got the same response. Absolutely barmy, and dodging an almost rhetorical question. kaputnik on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128610 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:27:22 +0000 kaputnik 128610@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I believe someone on here sent that to L&B DaveC, and was told they couldn't provide the answer as it wasn't logged as a separate offence of encroaching an ASL, but lumped in with other motoring offences and they used the "we don't have the manpower to work this out" escape clause. DaveC on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128608 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:20:05 +0000 DaveC 128608@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Perhaps someone could make a Freedom of Information request to see how many drivers The Met Police have fined for stopping in an ASL? and then use that when they come up with Fines for cyclists who enter ASL's incorrectly or hover just in front of an occupied ASL? kaputnik on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128604 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:08:23 +0000 kaputnik 128604@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I believe my caption was "yes, it's a BMW!" DaveC on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128603 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:04:43 +0000 DaveC 128603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ and check out whose picture they have used to illustrate the typical ASL entry point! Arellcat on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128590 Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:35:21 +0000 Arellcat 128590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://road.cc/content/news/96483-crowd-funded-appeal-against-advanced-stop-box-fine-court-today" rel="nofollow">http://road.cc/content/news/96483-crowd-funded-appeal-against-advanced-stop-box-fine-court-today</a> "Alex Paxton, a London cyclist who is fighting a fixed penalty notice imposed after he was unable to safely use an advanced stop box, will have his day in court this afternoon." algo on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-128028 Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:52:12 +0000 algo 128028@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Roibeard thanks for that link - I'd not seen it and it's good advice which I will be following. I would say though that one instance in which I filter to the front is if I feel I am left in a vulnerable position in the queue and there is nowhere else to go - e.g. waiting in the lane alongside a junction in heavy traffic where cars often go "half-way" and then try and push themselves into a space - I find on a bike you are virtually invisible in this case and I then try and seek refuge at the front (if that makes any sense). Min on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=3#post-127993 Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:46:10 +0000 Min 127993@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Because the law has no understanding whatsoever of what it is actually like to cycle? fimm on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127992 Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:40:59 +0000 fimm 127992@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The nice new shiny ASLs on the nice new shiny tarmac up at the Balerno junction have no feeder lanes at all. I will continue my usual practice with them, i.e. use them if I get there first and not bother if I don't. Does anyone know why the law has the bit about "proceeding in the cycle lane" in? Why doesn't it just say what everyone does, i.e. a cyclist my enter the box when the light is red but a motor vehicle may not? Greenroofer on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127962 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 22:48:58 +0000 Greenroofer 127962@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It sounds from the above that an ASL entry is legal for a bike because you don't actually ride over a white line even if you go past one to the side. If you're heading down Whitehouse Loan southbound, at crossroads with Strathearn Place you'll find that a trench has been dug through the centre of the ASL parallel with your line of travel. When the trench was reinstated they didn't repaint the stop lines or the ASL. Does this mean that, by following that strip of black tarmac you can avoid crossing any white lines and so don't have to stop for the red lights? Even if you could, would it be a good idea? gembo on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127941 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:32:05 +0000 gembo 127941@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Way back up thread at the Geordie taking on the polis 1. Never interrupt a polis with Firstly 2. Let a polis say what a polis views your infringement to be 3. A polis will then leave a space for you to say Yes Officer I see your point however I also feel I may have a point to add if I may..... Very surprised the Geordie was not huckled, however, he was filming it all... Uberuce on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127940 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:23:23 +0000 Uberuce 127940@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I skelped myself upside the head for forgetting this despite the fact Magnatom was in my flat on Saturday and the conversation did drift onto ASZ's, but at the foot of my road is the worst one I've encountered. It is different very late at night, but apart from that the light sequence is split: ahead only <-> right only, so you can never filter into the right-turning half of the ASZ unless the lane to your left is moving. It's not a wide two lanes and it's heavily used by HGVs and buses. neddie on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127938 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:14:14 +0000 neddie 127938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ You'd have to be mad to follow the rules to the letter. As far as I'm concerned, if the lines aren't painted correctly, all bets are off! Do as you please, or what 'feels right' Arellcat on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127934 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:57:21 +0000 Arellcat 127934@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Great set of pics, WC. Shows what happens when a local authority gets rid of all its Clerks of Works. Wilmington's Cow on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127930 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:37:00 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127930@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Right, the ASLs I passed between the Meadows and Niddrie... Feeder on the left given there's a cycle lane there, but nothing for cyclists wanting to turn in the right hand lane (and there are two lanes here). <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192870164/"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/10192870164_719cace66a.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192870164/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr Again, feeder on the left is because there's a cycle lane there, but nothing for anyone wanting to turn right. Oh, and always cars stopped in this one. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192884344/"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3676/10192884344_215db7f533.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192884344/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr Aaaaaand again. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192997635/"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3771/10192997635_b47a73ea26.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192997635/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr Okay, now the feeder is a solid line! <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192903064/"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2883/10192903064_8b2632cdd9.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192903064/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr Feeder is sorted, but still no feeder for those wanting to turn right. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193016115/"><img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3689/10193016115_43bf4b2360.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193016115/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr As above. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193025195/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7454/10193025195_c91c5a6f6c.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193025195/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr But by the bottom of the hill... No feeder at all. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192930904/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7346/10192930904_9bb91c0792.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192930904/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr All of the ASLs around Cameron Toll also have no feeders and just solid lines. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193072646/"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/10193072646_05fe23ee5d.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193072646/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192947784/"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2842/10192947784_52e35a5200.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10192947784/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr But get to Niddrie and suddenly there are feeders on the left AND middle for going right and straight on. Though the side roads have solid lines and no feeders, so on one crossroads you get perfect examples right next to perfectly useless examples... <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193099066/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/10193099066_a9f0f2eaf6.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/10193099066/">Edinburgh ASLs</a> by <a href="http://www.flickr.com/people/blackpuddinonnabike/">blackpuddinonnabike</a>, on Flickr Arellcat on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127883 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:46:05 +0000 Arellcat 127883@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ From the Road Traffic Act: Where the road markings (in reference to advanced stop lines) has been placed in conjunction with light signals, the "stop line" in relation to those light signals means - (a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or (b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane. The <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/36">RTA 1988 section 36</a> basically says that if we put a sign in, then you have to obey it. However, paragraph (2) states: " A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either— (a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or (b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one; and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates. " Dave's text comes from the <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/43/made">Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, section 43</a>. The explanatory notes relating to stop lines (diagram 1002.1) are contained in the <a href="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223667/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-05.pdf">Traffic Signs Manual, chapter 5</a>. For cycles the diagram is 1001.2 on page 101. Paragraph 16.21 on page 100 states: "An advisory or mandatory cycle lane, preferably 1.5m wide, must be provided to enable cyclists to enter the reservoir lawfully, i.e. without crossing the first stop line." Note the word "must". CEC, are you listening? So, if a cycle ASL is provided, but without an accompanying cycle lane, the installation violates the requirements and one would argue that the entire sign is thus void. However, the motor vehicle stop line is still valid and to cross it would be an offence. A cyclist crossing that stop line to stop at the second line could not be considered doing so legally because while he is still complying with the requirement of the sign in spirit, the sign itself does not exist, so the cyclist becomes guilty of an offence whether or not the manoeuvre was made in the area of an approach lane. Roibeard on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127857 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:29:47 +0000 Roibeard 127857@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @chdot - I prefer <a href="http://www.magnatom.net/2012/01/advanced-stop-lines-spawn-of-satan.html">Magnatom's approach</a>. To summarise the rules: 1) In most cases don't use the ASL - it will put you in danger. 2) If in doubt see rule 1. To my mind they are "faux amis", and I find it interesting that the promised land appears to have only toyed with them a bit, and may be phasing them out. Robert BenN on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127855 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:29:19 +0000 BenN 127855@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Brand new ASL was painted on Broomhouse Drive eastbound at junction with Saughton Road a month ago with no filter, just solid white line all the way across. duncans on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127848 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:18:40 +0000 duncans 127848@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ An example in edinburgh without feeder: <a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?q=google+maps+edinburgh&ll=55.960765,-3.256854&spn=0.001156,0.003608&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Edinburgh,+City+of+Edinburgh,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=55.960764,-3.257125&panoid=vF6bet3E56MEtR8dUdvrFg&cbp=12,263.23,,0,0">Queensferry Road ASL</a> amir on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127845 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:14:02 +0000 amir 127845@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ On Gilmerton Road near Morrisons, I think that an ASL would be warranted. This going northbound at the traffic lights for Morrisons - see <a href="https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gilmerton+road&ll=55.910613,-3.140877&spn=0.000313,0.000431&hnear=Gilmerton+Rd&gl=uk&t=h&z=21" rel="nofollow">https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gilmerton+road&ll=55.910613,-3.140877&spn=0.000313,0.000431&hnear=Gilmerton+Rd&gl=uk&t=h&z=21</a> The reason is that there is a cycle lane going right up to the lights. When the lights are red, this frequently leads to a cyclist in the cycle lane next to a vehicle, with the vehicle turning left. This is potentially dangerous (I might try to adopt a primary position at such a junction). I have pointed this out in the past to the council but they said it wasn't priority. So this is a case of a feeder lane without an ASL. chdot on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127836 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:08:26 +0000 chdot 127836@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Don't know if this has ever been on CCE - <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/10186464725/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7420/10186464725_3a11f4d177.jpg"></a> <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/asls_0.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/asls_0.pdf</a> (Haven't read). algo on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127835 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:05:03 +0000 algo 127835@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Thanks for that pic - enlightening. It shows quite well the point made about the King's Theatre ASL - if I were turning right and first in the queue I'd see it as positively dangerous not to be in the right lane to turn right, and hence entering the ASL supposedly illegally. If you did as you were supposed to and entered from the filter lane and then swung right and the lights changed as you could well end up in a mess.... amir on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127831 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:53:23 +0000 amir 127831@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Here is a ASL feeder (east end of Lady Rd). <a href="https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.926693,-3.166367&spn=0.000313,0.000431&t=h&z=21" rel="nofollow">https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.926693,-3.166367&spn=0.000313,0.000431&t=h&z=21</a> Interestingly there isn't one on the left. I'd agree that ASLs are kind of failed infrastructure. They aren't enforced - you often see police cars using them. And nobody who doesn't cycle sees the point in them or understands the vulnerability of cyclists at junctions and elsewhere. kaputnik on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127828 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:37:30 +0000 kaputnik 127828@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ assume they were meant to be painted with dashed lines, but contractors either couldn't be bothered or were given incorrect drawings. Just head out with some black paint and add a single dash to make all ASL entry legal? algo on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127823 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:23:44 +0000 algo 127823@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ ah, numpties again - thanks for clearing that up :-) Wilmington's Cow on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127820 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:22:29 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127820@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I'm probably being thick, but in the absence of dashed white line entry points, does this just render them useless" Not being thick at all. Technically, legally, yes, it renders them useless. The one in the pic is likely supposed to be a central entry, but has been given a solid line. When new ASLs were painted outside the Scottish Widows building on Dalkeith Road the little entry lanes were also solid lines. Our fate is in the hands of numpties. algo on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127818 Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:16:54 +0000 algo 127818@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I am pretty confused by how I'm supposed to behave at an ASL now. I don't understand the point of it if there's a solid white line, and cyclists aren't allowed beyond that line at red - how does distinguish a cyclist from a car? I'm probably being thick, but in the absence of dashed white line entry points, does this just render them useless. If so what is the point of the triangle in the right hand lane at this junction? <img src="http://www.algorhythmical.co.uk/dsvf.jpg"> <a href="http://goo.gl/maps/g5gCJ">Dundee Street to Viewforth</a> Min on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127540 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:31:33 +0000 Min 127540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Looks like you are supposed to enter it from the pavement.. And hurray for the cyclist who wouldn't take ignorance from a polis. paolobr on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127539 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:28:37 +0000 paolobr 127539@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Noticed <a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?q=edinburgh&hl=en&ll=55.955381,-3.153237&spn=0.005033,0.016512&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.910968,91.142578&hnear=Edinburgh,+City+of+Edinburgh,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=55.95538,-3.155281&panoid=2L2jOSo5f_1G0CaIi4hvGg&cbp=12,291.27,,0,15.14&z=17">this ASL</a> at junction of Meadowbank Terrace and London Rd on way home with my daughter on Sunday. Remarked to her (as we waited in the box) that technically we were breaking the law. Not to mention the driver to our right who had also entered. Wilmington's Cow on "Cyclist fights fixed penalty for oing over ASL line" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11162&page=2#post-127522 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:03:42 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127522@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Conversely I noticed most heading between Cameron Toll and Niddrie actually have the centre feeder where there are two lanes.