http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Make all cyclists take a test, says sister of woman killed by truck" en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 09:20:00 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127402 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 22:06:25 +0000 Instography 127402@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Training becomes the solution when inexperience and the lack of a defensive or avoidance strategy is identified as the problem. Cyclists aren't avoiding the traffic - train them. I'm not sure that any of the vocal advocates of training who are setting this agenda would be recommending even a vehicular approach to cycling. I suspect when they want cyclists trained, they want them trained to simply stay out of the way. It leaves the responsibility with the most vulnerable road user and has nothing of substance to say to drivers who are supposed to have already been trained. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127316 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:32:12 +0000 Dave 127316@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's interesting that "training" has become the new silver bullet, perhaps because so many people have been brow-beaten into wearing hi-viz/armour and are still dying at a rate of knots.</p> <p>Since ~90% or so of cyclists in the morning peak probably hold a driving licence, you might think they have a reasonably functional working knowledge of the roads. </p> <p>Conversely, I've never seen any evidence that cyclists who can't drive have even a slightly higher casualty rate (wouldn't this be an easy and obvious study for someone to do?)</p> <p>That's not to say that cycle training, like pedestrian training or extra driver training wouldn't be a great thing for people to do, but it seems like it would be simpler to tackle the deaths at source? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127289 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 09:31:36 +0000 Tulyar 127289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>At University (MANY years ago) I came across a few examples, even then, of students who had, through their upbringing, failed to gain the appropriate degree of street awareness to survive as an independent 'adult' in a city. One girl who had lived in a village, with no exposure to city life, shocked us all when she walked alone through a notorious red-light district going back home after we had packed up after the groups one Saturday night. Others went through mental back flips as they were exposed, abruptly to the vastly different ways of life on offer.</p> <p>Many young people today have been 'cotton wool' kids, overly protected against the educational benefits of grazing knees and bashing their heads in low hazard activities ie crashing a bike in the park through showing off, which sets them up to be more risk aware when transferring from a bike to a car.</p> <p>Thus many will head out on to the streets with a naieve innocence that leaves them with a greater risk of coming to harm in many ways. Discovering that it is unwise to be focussed on texting or making a call when walking might set you up to be less likely to do this when driving. Then perhaps we will need less of the B*** obvious notices on coffee cups and other everyday items, advising that a hot drink "May be Hot - can cause burns" </p> <p>A simple lesson being that when moving around, you should cut out all distractions that prevent you being aware of surrounding activity that may be harmful. Whether that actually needs training or should be part of a rounded process of growing up is a matter for debate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127189 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 09:15:58 +0000 gembo 127189@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@claggycog</p> <p>There was a times article, still there if you google, citing 122 deaths in 2012. Fourteen in London, three in Edinburgh. One death is one too many and your original point still stands that for its population London deaths are lower than for example Edinburgh deaths.</p> <p>Population of Scotland estimated in 2012 as 5,313,600 - highest ever, your point still stands</p> <p>population of London 2011 8173941 third biggest city in europe </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127180 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 07:53:15 +0000 Nelly 127180@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Re: pavement cycling in Livi, I grew up in gilmerton, and we used to cycle everywhere without thought of infra - sometimes road, sometimes on the interconnecting paths between housing schemes in ferniehill, moredun and hyvots (now largely demolished).</p> <p>Always helpful when trying to outrun some other gang of pre teen thugs !</p> <p>We did cycle proficiency at school, but it was no substitute for the reality of cycling so many different scenarios in that area. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127175 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 23:25:17 +0000 wee folding bike 127175@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I got a few surprised looks in school this week when I said it was illegal to cycle on pavements. This was from the staff, not pupils, although pupils are usually surprised to hear it too.</p> <p>I wouldn't be happy with my boy's school teaching Cycling Proficiency but that is at least partly because of who would be doing it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127162 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:21:54 +0000 Claggy Cog 127162@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interestingly perhaps...or not, there are over 11m people live in London and 8 cyclists have been killed, Scotland has a population of approaching 7m in total and 12 cyclists have been killed this year. Speaks volumes as far as I am concerned. I am not saying that eight is in any way acceptable, it is not, just a comment or perhaps an observation on percentages.</p> <p>I think that this woman's sister perhaps feels that she was unprepared for traffic, and had not had enough or any training at all to prepare her for it. However, I cycled in London for years, and yes, I had some hairy moments, but overall I actually felt safer there on the roads than I do cycling in S. Edinburgh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127159 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:03:48 +0000 chdot 127159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The "some" is the problem. </p> <p>There is no mechanism/money to make it universal. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127158 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:01:36 +0000 gembo 127158@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cycling proficiency / bikeability is still going well in some schools </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127155 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 21:53:00 +0000 559 127155@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Any cyclist training requirement would quickly default to being a prime method to further normalise and internalise the UK's hyper-aggressive intolerant motorised road culture</em></p> <p>What? so we don't even try to train or educate. By educating cyclists, they are being equipped to deal with the motorised road culture, their families also become more aware, and so on. We have all, had directly witnessed instances of poor cycling. </p> <p>If an environment was created where people could learn in a constructive positive manner, rather than shouted advice/challenges from fellow cyclists, which usually has little background context, principally due to the time constraints of the exchange, that can only be welcome. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127154 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 21:41:55 +0000 559 127154@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Re Livi, I don't live there but did do some school trips there back in the 70s, and one of its "selling" points in design terms was the arrangement of paths, now I think the logic was to keep these for peds and bikes. But I don't know if that was a formalised legal thing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278&page=2#post-127136 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:31:44 +0000 crowriver 127136@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cyclist's boyfriend calls for action to make London safer</p> <p>21-year-old Maria Karsa was riding to work in London when she became the latest cyclist to be hit by a lorry. She was knocked off her bike at a busy junction in Aldgate.</p> <p>A week later doctors at the Royal London hospital - where she worked as a nursing assistant - took her off life support and sadly she died. Now her boyfriend Tony Young is calling for action to make cycling safer in the capital.</p> <p>(Video of interview with the young man here)</p> <p><a href="http://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2013-09-25/cyclist-killed-aldgate/" rel="nofollow">http://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2013-09-25/cyclist-killed-aldgate/</a></p> <p>VERY different angle from the scandalous Evening Standard smear piece. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127134 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:26:53 +0000 crowriver 127134@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Maria’s heartbroken sister, Athena, told the Tribune this week that Maria’s bike was clipped by the lorry, before she was dragged under the vehicle. It is believed that the lorry driver may not have been aware of the accident immediately and had to be flagged down by members of the public."</p> <p>Sounds like a classic SMIDSY. Except she's dead.</p> <p><a href="http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2013/sep/nursing-assistant-becomes-latest-bike-crash-victim-mp-asks-when-it-ever-going-end" rel="nofollow">http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2013/sep/nursing-assistant-becomes-latest-bike-crash-victim-mp-asks-when-it-ever-going-end</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127132 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:06:06 +0000 gembo 127132@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>many of The pavements in livi are not beside the road type of pavements. WC did you not know that? They are footpaths perpendicular to roads or parallel to roads</p> <p>You are meant to cycle on them</p> <p>Today I was being trailed from Tollcross through to grass market by cyclist who I could sense wanted to undertake me.</p> <p>At grass market, very congested. Big lorry at The fiddlers. I braked. Cyclist behind said 'don't stop' I replied Never cycle up the inside of a lorry. Now of course I do cycle up the inside of lorries if safe but this was not safe so I went for a more pithy imparting of wisdom, even, if the person didn't want it and even if you don't think it is wisdom.</p> <p>Very sad about the actual story at the top and very bad journalism </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127131 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:02:51 +0000 crowriver 127131@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>How can we then punish people for doing what they didn't know was wrong in the first place? </em></p> <p>Oh I dunno, run them over with a massive tipper lorry?</p> <p>Or, maybe, in this case the <em>driver</em> was in the wrong? We'll never know, because folk are too busy blaming the victim, who is dead and can't tell us otherwise. That's when they're not blaming "cyclists" in general. On a cycling forum too! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127124 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 17:16:39 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127124@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>No, why would I? It's a bit like telling me now that walking on them is wrong when you've watched people walk on them all your life. I've watched people cycling on them all my life, seems 'normal'.</em>"</p> <p>Right, sorted. So you're one of my 25%. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127123 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 17:05:26 +0000 cc 127123@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dutch children get a lot of cycle training:</p> <p><a href="http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/bicycle-training-in-the-netherlands/">http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/bicycle-training-in-the-netherlands/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127122 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 17:04:00 +0000 Baldcyclist 127122@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>Sorry, I'm trying to egt this sorted in my head.</strong></p> <p>OK</p> <p><strong>So, were the Livi paths shared use when you cycled on them?</strong></p> <p>Yes</p> <p><strong>You didn't know they were shared use?</strong></p> <p>No</p> <p><strong>You just cyckled on them anyway?</strong></p> <p>Yes, ever since I was knee high people just cycled on the path/pavement/shared use/whatever it's called, they still do now.</p> <p><strong>But above all else, did you know that (in general) cyucling on pavements was wrong but did it anyway?</strong></p> <p>No, why would I? It's a bit like telling me now that walking on them is wrong when you've watched people walk on them all your life. I've watched people cycling on them all my life, seems 'normal'.</p> <p>OK, as previously discussed cycling rates low in Livingston, but of those that do, ALL of them cycle on the pavement, just how it is. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127121 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 17:01:59 +0000 sallyhinch 127121@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We've had police advising people to cycle on the pavement here in Dumfries... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127119 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:57:45 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127119@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry, I'm trying to egt this sorted in my head.</p> <p>So, were the Livi paths shared use when you cycled on them?</p> <p>You didn't know they were shared use?</p> <p>You just cyckled on them anyway?</p> <p>But above all else, did you know that (in general) cyucling on pavements was wrong but did it anyway?</p> <p>(that's the crux of this - I think that at least 75% of pavement cyclists know they shouldn't be doing it, but I think the waters have got muddied here somewhat). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127118 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:51:03 +0000 Baldcyclist 127118@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So even in Livi, when cycling on the pavement, you didn't know that that was wrong?</em></p> <p>There was never a distinction, only now due to interwebs do I know that pretty much every path in Livingston has been designated as 'shared use'. There are no 'pavements' as such, never has been. If you go to Livi today, you can cycle where you want. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127114 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:28:11 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127114@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Pavements were always just there to be cycled on, why wouldn't you just do that when you came into Edinburgh too?</em>"</p> <p>So even in Livi, when cycling on the pavement, you didn't know that that was wrong? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127112 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 16:19:02 +0000 fimm 127112@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm fairly sure there is some kind of cycling proficiency taught in Dutch schools - but the whole culture there is so different with regard to cycling, I suspect they're taught rather different things than are taught here...</p> <p>(My recollection of cycling proficiency is that it was done after school and I went to the lesson but forgot about the test!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127104 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:26:59 +0000 Baldcyclist 127104@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Surely both would be fairly common knowledge? I'd venture at least 75% of people (and probably more) who cycle on the pavements know that they shouldn't be doing it but do it anyway<br /> "</p> <p>Going back to my Livi experience, you just cycle on the pavement, go where you want to go. I had no notion of a 'shared use path' until many years into adulthood.<br /> Pavements were always just there to be cycled on, why wouldn't you just do that when you came into Edinburgh too? </p> <p>Easy not to know some things when the rules are different in different places*.</p> <p>*Not actually different, just could seem that way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127101 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:08:20 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 127101@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>How would those cyclists know that cycling on the pavement was wrong, or riding down a one way street isn't allowed for instance?</em>"</p> <p>Surely both would be fairly common knowledge? I'd venture at least 75% of people (and probably more) who cycle on the pavements know that they shouldn't be doing it but do it anyway.</p> <p>Thing is, again in the cycling utopias across the water, the culture means that those things are tolerated. Actually, that suggests people think it's bad in the first place and put up with it. Rather it's 'normal' (though in the main they don't have to do it cos it's then backed up by infrastructure).</p> <p>There was one street in Copenhagen that I commented on, with a cycle path at a diagonal right across a (busy) wide pavement. Turns out cyclists had been using the pavement as a desire line cut-through, but instead of demonising those cyclists the council thought "Hmmmm, there must be a reason cyclists want to go there instead of taking the streets around the block" and they put in a cycle lane... In a nutshell that has so many of the differences between the UK and Denmark as regards cyclists, pedestrians and political will.</p> <p>But I do agree. Bring back proper cycling proficiency. It should be a <em>requirement</em> that it's taught in schools, rather than something that a few opt into. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127100 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:06:22 +0000 mgj 127100@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ignorance is no defence in the law, otherwise I could pretend that I didnt know that murder was a crime </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127097 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 15:01:14 +0000 i 127097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The dutch do <a href="http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/bicycle-training-in-the-netherlands/">train and test</a> their children on how to cycle. </p> <p>It still doesn't make up for dangerous road design. <a href="http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/on-training/" rel="nofollow">http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/on-training/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127095 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:54:59 +0000 Baldcyclist 127095@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There are many arguments, one is the infrastructure, fine. Another is the culture, I buy that too.</p> <p>There is also a notion that a cyclist who uses the road should have an awareness, and at the very least an inclination of what the rules are.</p> <p>What if they have no awareness, never read the highway code, and at the moment there is no legal requirement for them to do so. How can we then punish people for doing what they didn't know was wrong in the first place? How would those cyclists know that cycling on the pavement was wrong, or riding down a one way street isn't allowed for instance?</p> <p>If your only prior interaction on any infrastructure was only as a pedestrian it would probably seem perfectly reasonable to do either of those things. Sometimes people need to be forced to learn. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127094 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:45:17 +0000 minus six 127094@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Any cyclist training requirement would quickly default to being a prime method to further normalise and internalise the UK's hyper-aggressive intolerant motorised road culture.</p> <p>Just like helmets and hi viz already are. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11278#post-127087 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 14:10:05 +0000 559 127087@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm, regardless of how good the infrastructure gets, we will never be totally separated from other road users, even if only each other.</p> <p>@WC my point is about education is that as Denmark and Netherlands have a strong cycling culture and we dont, we need to substitute training to compensate. </p>