CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Commuting: motoring costs

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Commuting: motoring costs http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Commuting: motoring costs en Wed, 13 May 2026 03:21:28 +0000 Instography on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300&page=2#post-127769 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 20:25:06 +0000 Instography 127769@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Let's imagine you move to the 'burbs and decide to go car free. All your neighbours will be driving to most places. The social pressure to conform will be pretty strong." @crowriver I'm not saying it's non-existent but I think you overstate the social pressure to have a car and to drive. If anything I'd say there seems to be a stronger pressure to justify driving. We have a car and I cycle most places but not everywhere and have never once felt the urge to explain why I don't drive when other people would. But often people will spontaneously explain why cycling to work or the shops would be so much more difficult for them (even though they also work in Edinburgh, in a similar office-based job and have no more or fewer children than me). wee folding bike on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300&page=2#post-127761 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 18:50:39 +0000 wee folding bike 127761@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ One reason I never used my '71 VW much over the winter was the lack of heating. Now the '97 Volvo is in the same boat and I can't get a replacement control valve so the VW might make as much sense… if it still worked. Minors have more easily available parts than my VW does. That might not be true for Beetles or Kombis. mgj on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300&page=2#post-127756 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 17:15:22 +0000 mgj 127756@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Appreciation of both types in the DS; I think I may have referred to Smiles per Gallon when driving it (when not wrestling with the column shift). In the last 18 months prices of similar ones for sale have gone up between 3 and 5 thousand pounds as opposed to what I was looking at. Contrast that with the Passat estate I bought new, that depreciated over 11 years from £17,000 odd to £2,000 and cost much more to run as complicated things broke over the years and there was much more that needed replacing, even though it only did 6,000 miles a year, none of which could be done by me or a friendly little mechanic. Article in the Guardian recently recommending a simple classic (Morris Minor etc)as a second car on the basis of a lack of depreciation and simpler servicing. For a city dweller, could be first car based on my experience. YMMV crowriver on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300&page=2#post-127653 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:18:39 +0000 crowriver 127653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ There is of course an issue of affordability in Edinburgh. I've heard the argument many times: "you get more for your money out of town". Inevitably there's an (unspoken) assumption attached to that, ie. "you need a car". For those already running cars in town, it's a more straightforward decision, and I've seen many make it. If you don't run a car, then it's frankly very difficult to live in most suburban/dormitory areas. If you're careful you might find somewhere close to the rail network or a main bus route, but even then you will not be as well served as in the city. Let's imagine you move to the 'burbs and decide to go car free. All your neighbours will be driving to most places. The social pressure to conform will be pretty strong. cc on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127611 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:53:11 +0000 cc 127611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "As for classic cars, they only very rarely appreciate in value ... " Yes, but - a Citroën DS! The height of cool! Dave on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127606 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 08:31:58 +0000 Dave 127606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ However, people who choose to live in town don't try to buy a 5 bedroom house with garage & then leave 3 of the bedrooms, & the garage, full of junk* (unless they are very rich). Instead they 'make do' with a 2 bed flat & make sure that space is used efficiently. For the record, I was comparing three bed only (which is what we're in), although a garage was indeed essential after living in said 2 bed flat for many years (not having half the hall used up by your daily transport is also a lifestyle choice though, one you pay for). I guess eventually everything can be seen as the true tradeoff it is. I have a good friend who lives a stupendous distance out of Edinburgh (4 hours each way by bike, i.e. he drives) who made a convincing case that it was a sensible decision financially based on property prices, travel costs and amenities. Personally I think he severely undervalued his time, but then he's only one of a very large family, so perhaps the time cost needs to be fractioned? (I'm not so altruistic... yet!) This discussion reminds me that I need to phone our energy supplier and kick them in the head for suggesting we pay £120 a month for dual fuel, when it looks like we're using a tiny fraction of that. Previous occupants evidently liked heat. Baldcyclist on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127593 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 22:37:56 +0000 Baldcyclist 127593@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <blockquote>So I'd argue that it is still a lifestyle choice whether to live in town or the suburbs</blockquote> Of course, and why not? Imagine having all that space, large gardens, open views, coastal walks 3mins away, cheaper energy costs (substantially lower, my 4 bed detached house costs a whopping £70 per month in energy bills), lower council tax, less crime. Sounds horrible.... ;) Perhaps the greener well insulated, and more efficient 'A rated' homes offset the travelling emissions? Especially if the bulk of that commute is done by bike... And agreed, the DS, nice. :) neddie on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127583 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:44:05 +0000 neddie 127583@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ PS. I think Citroen DSs are very cool cars. I just find it hard to believe they appreciate significantly :) neddie on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127581 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:31:26 +0000 neddie 127581@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ the cheapest comparable house ESPC shows around the area of our flat in town is a cool £200k more expensive However, people who choose to live in town don't try to buy a 5 bedroom house with garage & then leave 3 of the bedrooms, & the garage, full of junk* (unless they are very rich). Instead they 'make do' with a 2 bed flat & make sure that space is used efficiently. * I'm not saying anyone here does that ;) So I'd argue that it is still a lifestyle choice whether to live in town or the suburbs & it's not really fair to compare prices of comparable houses between the two... As for classic cars, they only very rarely appreciate in value (they may have appreciated in value at some point in their lives), most of the time they depreciate, same as any other car. And I could imagine that treating rust & sourcing spare parts could be very expensive & time consuming. Uberuce on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127564 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:31:25 +0000 Uberuce 127564@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I was briefly amused this morning to note that a person doing my 9.9 miles/day would, with wiggle room for holiday allowance and weekend working, break even over the course of a year if he or she spent £500 on cyclocommuting. You really don't need a fancy bike to do my commute, so a £300-400 hybrid and the change spent on pannier'n'lights'n'locks would see you very slightly in the black. crowriver on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127560 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 18:27:36 +0000 crowriver 127560@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ P.S.:- I hope I made it clear what I meant by "environmental factors". I was not referring to awareness of environmental or green issues, but rather the way our surroundings and external factors influence behaviour. fimm on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127547 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:42:13 +0000 fimm 127547@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Although I love hillwalking, I have to acknowledge that it isn't the greenest of hobbies, especially when done as a weekend away or a day trip. I think if we didn't do that, it would be harder to argue for car ownership. HWMBO points out that it is the convenience - we can go "the weather looks nice, let's do something" without the faff of getting hold of a car. But at the moment we do fine with hire cars and City Car Club. crowriver on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127541 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:39:01 +0000 crowriver 127541@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ II don't think it's anywhere near as simple as personal choice. Social and environmental factors limit certain choices and encourage others. Access to infrastructure and facilities is a key driver in our transport choices, as we all know: if it influences to a large degree who decides to cycle or walk regularly, then it surely influences who decides to use public transport or drive. DaveC on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127536 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 15:04:17 +0000 DaveC 127536@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Regardless of costs its all about personal choice. To drive or not to drive. You can make all the arguments about the nessessity of a car in todays society, but in the end its your choice. I can get by without a car, but we chose top own a car as its useful for being able to travel where we want, when we want. Also SWMBO has some say in whether we own a car or not, and she won. If your interested, I used to live 30 miles from work in East Anglia, and it cost me twice the fuel costs to run my car. One 65ltr tank of Diesel would do me for 2 weeks of commuting. Thats all in! When I worked it out it was astounding how much I spent over the 5 years down there. crowriver on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127532 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:43:52 +0000 crowriver 127532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ People just chose to have cars because they make certain things easier to do That's often what folk say. It may well be true in many cases, but sometimes I do wonder. Not to say that there aren't plenty of things that a car enables you to do, but that's not quite the same as making existing things (pre-car ownership) easier (though we will all be able to think of examples). Personally I find it easier to not have to spend not inconsiderable sums on purchasing, maintaining, taxing, insuring and fuelling a motor vehicle. For others, the cost may be worth it. I'm not sure that many folk are quite so hard nosed and rational about it though. Car ownership just seems to be expected because 'everyone else' has one (not actually true) which then translates into a 'need' for one. In that sense it is also 'easier' in that the individual fits in with the majority. It's a bit like mobile phones. Yes, they can be useful. Whether they are necessary is perhaps in doubt. It seems that most 'need' one. Once 'everyone' has one, does that make it 'easier' to do certain things? Some things, yes, especially now that they're effectively portable computers. Have they made certain things more difficult though? (For example, enjoying some peace and quiet; getting away from work; having face to face conversations; etc.) kaputnik on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127527 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:23:44 +0000 kaputnik 127527@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I can confess to choosing to having neither a car, chiddlers or to living outside of town. I don't think I can only offer my bewilderment about colleagues who are in a similar state of affairs as me, beyond the car/driving thing, who live closer to work and who drive here then have the cheek to moan about parking (or lack of), the cost and traffic. Baldcyclist on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127524 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 14:11:09 +0000 Baldcyclist 127524@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ it's because you chose to live in an area which forced you to become car dependent. Not really, don't think there are many places in this country where you couldn't get by without a car. People just chose to have cars because they make certain things easier to do, not that they couldn't do them without a car. Of course, some people who were city dwellers before have made that choice. We can't all live in the city though. Dave on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127518 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:45:48 +0000 Dave 127518@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If you need a car to get to work/the shops then (with a few exceptions) it's because you chose to live in an area which forced you to become car dependent. That's for urban/suburban living: rural is different. Great post. This is exactly what we've done - traded the cost of a big place in town for the cost of travelling from the outskirts. I went for many years without a car in Edinburgh but in the end our interests necessitated one (hard to go biking or kayaking on the west coast when there's one bus a day and it only gets you within 20 miles of your destination - previously the uni provided a minibus and club for my outdoor fixes). Edited to add: the cheapest comparable house ESPC shows around the area of our flat in town is a cool £200k more expensive, or £4k pa for an optimistic 50 year tenancy... crowriver on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127499 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 13:17:42 +0000 crowriver 127499@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We manage just fine without a car. We used to be members of the City Car Club but never used it. Mind you we live in the centre, have our pick of buses/trains and cycle most of the time. If we had done what many seem to do when kids arrive, ie. move out to the suburbs or dormitory satellite towns (eg. Fife, Midlothian) to get more affordable family accommodation then we'd most likely be car dependent, unless we had chosen location very carefully to be near bus services/rail stations. If you need a car to get to work/the shops then (with a few exceptions) it's because you chose to live in an area which forced you to become car dependent. That's for urban/suburban living: rural is different. Dave on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127477 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:08:39 +0000 Dave 127477@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And I know all of that stuff seems perverse, but is just viewed in the same way as housing costs. Already accounted for monthly bills. Last night when I came up with £270 a month as our TCO for the car, I was convinced for a wild moment that I could sell SWMBO on just using taxis and hire cars. Talk about an immediate shut down of that concept... Rationally though, it's almost 90 minutes each way by bus to do the 7 miles from Currie to Kings Buildings and it would be expensive in terms of bus fares - an annual pass costs roughly half of the cost of owning the car. Since driving saves ~2 hours a day you'd have to ask whether 220 x 2 = 440 hours of your life is the difference in cost. Unless you price your time under £2 or £3 an hour it would be madness not to have the car. At this point I admitted utter defeat. (As the WoL isn't surfaced or lit, bike commuting isn't to be relied on.) AKen on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127475 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 12:03:24 +0000 AKen 127475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ My bike cost £270 in 2005, so eight years old. Since then it has had four new tyres, three new chains, one new rear cassette and hub, one new front chainring, one new set of mudguards and numerous new cables, inner tubes and brake blocks. Wise cycling authorities tell me I should have gone through many more sets of chains-and-cogs stuff but, it seems to have worked so far. I don't know how much all that adds up to, but it's possibly about £460 - which is exactly what one bad car repair bill set me back. mgj on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127462 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:59:47 +0000 mgj 127462@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @kaputnik Its a big red Citroen DS, located in Marchmont. Of course this does mean I can no longer say that I do pay VED when I'm shouted at on my bike. Maybe I need to buy a newer car too... fimm on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127460 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:55:18 +0000 fimm 127460@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Dave thank you. Baldcyclist on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127455 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:44:34 +0000 Baldcyclist 127455@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And I know all of that stuff seems perverse, but is just viewed in the same way as housing costs. Already accounted for monthly bills. Baldcyclist on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127454 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:43:22 +0000 Baldcyclist 127454@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <blockquote>But you could spend £1k or £30k on a car... </blockquote> Of course. Car costs £3300 to buy per year, as opposed to £250 per year for bike over 4 years, but we would spend it anyway whether I cycled or not. In a sense the bike is the 'extra' expenditure. And as such is always the thing which is questioned when it needs something fixed on a monthly basis. Easy to forget the car, because it doesn't cost* anything on a monthly basis. *Not including buying/insurance/servicing/VED costs which are already accounted for 'bills'. kaputnik on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127452 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:40:50 +0000 kaputnik 127452@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ so spend on that of £15 a month in insurance and VED (free from April next year) Can you let me know make, model, colour and roughly where in town you are located so I can yell "why don't you pay some road tax!" as you pass? :) Dave on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127448 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:32:03 +0000 Dave 127448@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So is the £1300 stuff like MOT and VED? What else? (Do you include the actual cost of the vehicle, or some kind of depreciation in it?) It's everything we'd have to pay to own the car even if we didn't use it all year. So tax, MOT, insurance, breakdown cover. It also includes 100% depreciation since we expect to run the car into the ground rather than sell it on for a significant amount. Are you saying that if you did your current milage by hire car/taxi, you'd have £270 a month to spend? Exactly. mgj on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127447 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:30:55 +0000 mgj 127447@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Gosh, other folk must be harder on their equipment. My bike is 14 years old next month and costs around £5 a month in servicing and parts. My car is 40 years old and it appreciates in value, so spend on that of £15 a month in insurance and VED (free from April next year) is in the noise. Of course it does eat petrol, especially around town, which is why it is a) a rare treat to do any commuiting in it and b) driven in as fuel-efficient manner as possible. Dave on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127446 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:28:06 +0000 Dave 127446@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I must admit I never add 'buying' costs for either, because I figure we will always have a car But you could spend £1k or £30k on a car... while it doesn't affect the marginal cost of driving anywhere it's presumably still a significant household expense? (Moreso than bikes...) Service and MOT cost us £400 on average. Paying that up front (through depreciation on a new motor or as part of an "inclusive" package) and then only counting the bike equivalent costs might be a wee bit lopsided. Then again, I suppose if you own a lot of general outdoors kit and use it on the bike, are you 'subsidising' your bike costs? Snowy on "Commuting: motoring costs" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11300#post-127445 Tue, 08 Oct 2013 10:26:07 +0000 Snowy 127445@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I assuming that Dave meant that 'all in' the yearly cost was 270*12 = 3240. I'm assuming this because I came up with a yearly 'all in' cost of about 2.5k. Importantly, that did not include depreciation. That was pretty much the same again.