http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Scotland to debate 'strict liability' civil law change en Sun, 17 May 2026 14:38:14 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130978 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:35:36 +0000 Darkerside 130978@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ta algo - my typo </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130926 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:36:57 +0000 Focus 130926@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>David Gardiner @davidjhgardiner 29 Oct<br /> .@dhothersall @Hyvast Let this go through and, before you know it, anyone who gives a cyclist a little go-faster nudge will be behind bars.</em>"</p> <p>To use a popular internet phrase... Wow. Just wow.</p> <p>I know who I'd like to see behind bars, <em>handle</em>bars, when someone gives <em>him</em> a go-faster nudge. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130914 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:02:12 +0000 algo 130914@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Darkerside - thanks a lot for taking the time to write this up - nicely written too. </p> <p>(PS It's Jim Eadie by the way - don't think there's an r - just thought I'd mention it) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130855 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:06:54 +0000 Darkerside 130855@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Fun lunchtime spent summarising what was said, based on the transcription chdot linked. Hopefully not too dry...</p> <p><a href="http://www.darkerside.org/2013/10/strict-liability-debate-in-scottish-parliament/" rel="nofollow">http://www.darkerside.org/2013/10/strict-liability-debate-in-scottish-parliament/</a></p> <p>Alison Johnstone, Kezia Dugdale, Jim Eadier, Patrick Harvie and John Lamont come off well, with Jim and John probably being the best. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130848 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:22:27 +0000 PS 130848@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Has he nothing better to do? </em></p> <p>If he's a parliamentary researcher for the Conservative MSPs group, then I'd suggest no. ;o)</p> <p>If he fits the profile of most parliamentary resarchers I have seen, he will be a young guy with a heightened interest in the "game of politics" (being opinionated, debating, winding folk up, enjoying notoriety and getting a reaction) but with no experience of the wider world and how badly those sort of behaviours look to the people that politicians' policies actually affect. </p> <p>And politicians wonder why we've lost faith in the "political classes"... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130843 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:58:53 +0000 LaidBack 130843@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>100% moronic comment from that 'no relation' eejit.</p> <p>Just stirring up hatred for the sake of it. Has he nothing better to do? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130842 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:52:59 +0000 algo 130842@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver - it is unfortunate that Laidback's namesake is such an eejit - let us be sure not to confuse the two! He's also tweeted</p> <p>---</p> <p>David Gardiner @davidjhgardiner 29 Oct<br /> .@dhothersall @Hyvast Let this go through and, before you know it, anyone who gives a cyclist a little go-faster nudge will be behind bars.</p> <p>--</p> <p>which is verging on criminal I reckon </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130726 Wed, 30 Oct 2013 23:10:00 +0000 chdot 130726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-07934, in the name of Alison Johnstone, on strict liability. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.</p> <p>Motion debated,</p> <p>That the Parliament believes that the number of fatalities and injuries to pedestrians and cyclists on Scotland’s roads, including in the Lothian region, is unacceptably high; recognises that the Scottish Government has funded a number of national cycle safety initiatives; notes that versions of a strict liability rule exist in the civil law of many European countries; notes that a number of walking and cycling organisations support the introduction of such a law in Scotland; understands that a petition by Cycle Law Scotland on this topic has secured nearly 5,000 signatures; considers that a stricter liability rule could have positive benefits for the safety of more vulnerable road users as part of a package of measures, and would welcome further debate on this proposal.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/28862.aspx?r=8582&amp;mode=html#iob_77676" rel="nofollow">http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/28862.aspx?r=8582&amp;mode=html#iob_77676</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130679 Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:17:58 +0000 crowriver 130679@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Following from <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11505">the thread on unreasonable comments</a>, this one takes the biscuit I reckon:<br /> ---</p> <p>David Gardiner ‏@davidjhgardiner 29 Oct<br /> Strict liability in favour of cyclists is basically communism. Riding in an unprotected vehicle should qualify as contributory negligence.</p> <p>---</p> <p>It would appear this man is a parliamentary researcher for the Conservative MSPs group, which is rather worrying. I suspect a fair few commenters on the EEN web site are bitter Conservative or UKIP supporters. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130613 Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:58:59 +0000 slowcoach 130613@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>according to <a href="http://www.crashmap.co.uk" rel="nofollow">http://www.crashmap.co.uk</a>, Easter Road has had about 19 reported injury accidents involving pedal cyclist casualties in the latest 3 years 2010-2012 including 6 at the Dalmeny Street junction alone. The unnamed TS official may feel it is safe to cycle there but have they checked with the LA in charge? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130584 Wed, 30 Oct 2013 12:33:22 +0000 wangi 130584@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Down (N) Easter Rd - fine; the bottom half (N) of Easter Rd - fine. Cycling up (S) the top half of Easter Rd less so - you're limited speed wise by the climb and the road width is constricted by build outs. This results in lots of close passes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130533 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 23:49:12 +0000 sallyhinch 130533@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Couldn't help noticing Keith Brown's response to Kezia Dugdale when she said she'd be too scared to cycle up Easter road:</p> <p>"One of the officials from Transport Scotland who is sitting at the back of the chamber regularly cycles up and down Easter Road and feels that it is a safe road to cycle. Such things are subjective and depend on people’s experiences and perceptions of the environment around them, but other people feel that the road is safe in the circumstances."</p> <p>Or in other words 'man up and take the lane, woman.'</p> <p>I don't know the road myself but Google streetview shows a lot of angled parking which means drivers reversing out into the lane. Can't say I'd fancy cycling down there myself either </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130530 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 23:10:59 +0000 chdot 130530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Lynne &amp; Ian McNicoll (@andrewcyclist)<br /> 29/10/2013 22:06<br /> v interesting to watch stricter liability debate in @ScotParl today. gd to see @AlisonJohnstone @JimEadie_msp @kdugdalemsp @SarahBoyackMSP</p> <p>"<br /> "</p> <p>David Brennan (@magnatom)<br /> 29/10/2013 22:07<br /> @andrewcyclist @JimEadie_msp @kdugdalemsp @SarahBoyackMSP ..and well done @AlisonJohnstone on securing the debate. Need more on cycling.</p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477&page=2#post-130522 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 21:58:29 +0000 chdot 130522@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Realistically SL is such a minor issue - compared with (for instance) smoking in pubs and minimum pricing for alcohol - that it's a real shame that more people in all parties (particularly the one currently in power at Holyrood) don't just do it. </p> <p>The government/Transport Scotland wants "evidence". One problem is that most countries have had SL for so long that 'before and after' stats are next to meaningless. </p> <p>If there's no evidence that it makes things 'much better', presumably there's no evidence that it makes things 'worse' - so why not just do something else that is 'in line with the rest of Europe' (apart from England)??</p> <p>It's easy to assume (rightly or wrongly) that there is 'a fear of the motorist'. </p> <p>I'm sure most people 'here' feel that is an unnecessarily timid attitude. </p> <p>Obviously the Greens take a different view but it's far from clear if any of the other parties do/would - either for good reasons or even 'just to be different from the SNP'.</p> <p>The SNP current in charge in Scotland likes roads and bridges and really doesn't understand 'active travel' - it's like an add-on only of interest to a noisy minority. </p> <p>There is little understanding of health/social/economic/societal/etc. benefits. Of course that view is not confined to the SNP, but ahead of the 2014 vote it's disappointing that walking/cycling (etc.) is not seized on as a way of demonstrating what might be different in an independent Scotland. </p> <p>Of course it may be that they have already decided it would be a 'voter turnoff' - but I don't think Salmond/Swinney/Brown etc. think it's important enough to think about. </p> <p>Whether Scotland votes yes or no, I suspect that after the next Holyrood election no party will have an overall majority. </p> <p>Which means that it's still important to interest all MSPs and parties (and potential candidates) that cycling, walking, SpaceForPeople are important issues - in many policy areas not just 'transport'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130520 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 21:14:22 +0000 gkgk 130520@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ha, yes, I hear you Dave. But no, the (wildly?) optimistic view is that the administration post 2014 will not be the same at all, or not have same strategies and priorities, as they'll have a decade to reshape the country for next referendum, rather than just months to avoid upsetting people. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130516 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 20:35:49 +0000 Dave 130516@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>but rather that it's a likely strategy for them and that if they go with that approach, we may see SL legislation.</em></p> <p>This is the same rampantly populist and pro-motoring SNP that's running my Scotland, right? :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130510 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 19:33:51 +0000 crowriver 130510@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Supported by: John Lamont, Jim Eadie, Richard Lyle, Patrick Harvie, Jean Urquhart, Tavish Scott, Nigel Don, Malcolm Chisholm, Rob Gibson, Claudia Beamish, Graeme Pearson, Richard Baker, David Torrance, Kezia Dugdale"</p> <p>Worth noting those names. I'm pleased to see my local constituency MSP on the list of supporters. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130501 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:43:46 +0000 minus six 130501@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Maybe a green party coalition deal might swing it for us. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130495 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:27:54 +0000 gkgk 130495@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@o_0<br /> Wishful thinking maybe, I'm not sure, but there's no need to discuss that separate topic here - my point isn't whether or not it's a winning strategy for the snp to adopt post-2014, but rather that it's a likely strategy for them and that if they go with that approach, we may see SL legislation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130491 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:21:50 +0000 crowriver 130491@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would say that Scottish policy appears to borrow quite a lot from north America (Anglophone affinities and cultural ties), but also looks to Europe far more than (the south east of) England seems to. For example the role of the public sector is much more valued here. The Newsnight Scotland debate last night on higher and further education was quite instructive in this regard. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130488 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:59:54 +0000 minus six 130488@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>post-vote scandinavian drift?</p> <p>it's just wishful thinking</p> <p>ain't no nordic horizon on these here shores </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130485 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:11:09 +0000 gkgk 130485@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Morningsider has it spot on, I think - the snp will be wanting to avoid media headwinds just now. But after the vote the core strategy might be to aim for more "political continental drift" in the coming decade - looking for policies that make us feel more Scandic, less SE England - so it's SL and proper bike lanes galore by 2016, hopefully. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130482 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:54:45 +0000 Dave 130482@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Good skills! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130476 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:48:58 +0000 twq 130476@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave if you open the article in an incognito window (Ctrl+Shift+N) in chrome it won't ask you to register. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130475 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:42:04 +0000 Focus 130475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's also amazing that it seems to be only cyclists who understand the concept of strict liability after all the publicity it has received. Motorists and pedestrians don't seem to have a grasp of it, at least not in the comments section of media websites.</p> <p>Then again maybe that's where part of the problem lies - whereas cycling websites explain it how it is, the chances are that motoring sites in particular will be pedalling (pun intended) the line that it's an anti-motorist/pro-cyclist "hate campaign". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130464 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:57:03 +0000 algo 130464@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave - good point. </p> <p>If the onus lies with drivers to show that they weren't at fault, then perhaps that is some motivation to learn how cyclists are taught to cycle. They might discover such vernacular as primary position and door zone, and maybe perhaps the gap between how you should cycle and what non-cyclist drivers think good cycling is will be closed somewhat. It still astounds me that so many drivers who don't cycle seem to have an opinion about what cyclists should do. I can't dance, so I tend not to advise people on how to do it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130460 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:48:30 +0000 Dave 130460@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's not all that radical. If you crash your car into the back of another car you'll find presumed liability at play (whether legislated or not). </p> <p>It's only if you crash it into the back of a cyclist that you can get away with barely an awkward question asked. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130454 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:12:56 +0000 chdot 130454@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> MOVES for a radical change in the law which would force motorists to prove their innocence when faced with accident compensation claims from cyclists or pedestrians is gaining political support.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/support-shifts-gear-on-road-liability-law-1-3162819" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/support-shifts-gear-on-road-liability-law-1-3162819</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130446 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 12:03:47 +0000 chdot 130446@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ Morningsider</p> <p>Yes - interesting/useful nuances. </p> <p>Perhaps some of Kenny's constituents might like to ask him some direct questions... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11477#post-130440 Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:48:19 +0000 Morningsider 130440@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"uniformity of support" - excellent civil service phrase. Support for strict liability could be unanimous amongst cyclists and still not "uniform" - some may strongly support it while others are hardly bothered at all. </p> <p>Keith Brown is opposed to strict liability - but there is always the possibility he could be over-ruled by someone more senior. I doubt the Scottish Government will support strict liability (just now) as it is too easily protrayed as "war on the motorist" by the media and Government don't want any controversy before the referendum. </p>