http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Hi-viz for cyclists and pedestrians – sensible precaution or victim-blaming?" en Sun, 19 Apr 2026 21:56:55 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-273019 Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:43:42 +0000 I were right about that saddle 273019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting guy;</p> <p><em>Director<br /> Wine Rides Ltd<br /> March 2013 – Present (4 years 11 months)<br /> Wine Rides Ltd is a new ethical, British, package holiday. It is a collaboration between Wine Rides Ltd, Sedlescombe organic vineyard, and Carr Taylor vineyard. We offer our guests a three-day cycling adventure in the beautiful Weald of Kent. Our guests explore Britain's amazing wine producing historic landscape while camping on two of the U.K.'s finest vineyards. Wine Rides Ltd is about health, happiness and the provenance of food.</em></p> <p>I think his analysis is spot on. At the minute asking people with cars to cycle is like asking people with indoor lavvies to build a privy at the bottom of the garden. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-273018 Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:28:31 +0000 neddie 273018@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A good comment at the bottom of the article @hankchief posted:</p> <p><em>Alexander Baines-Buffery says:<br /> January 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm</p> <p>The fundamental drivers of human behaviour are: SCARF. Status, Certainty, Relatedness and Fairness.</p> <p>I think the hi-vis advise is bad because it makes cyclists look very different, that reduces ‘Relatedness’. Many drivers feel that they have spent more money on their car and therefore the have higher status than cyclists. This status threat is why cycle advocacy causes such hostility with so many drivers. Bike’s ability to slip through traffic infringes their sense of fairness.</p> <p>Finally proposals to put bike lanes in creates the possibility that traffic and all of the above may get worse and that creates a threat to their sense of certainty.</p> <p>The problem we have at the moment is that most people in the UK can’t even imagine why you would want to commute by bike.<br /> I think there is an absolute cassum to cross at the moment. We should just ask people if they would drive that way around their mum, if it was her on that bike?</em></p> <p>-----</p> <p>I seriously believe that my wearing hiviz these dark commutes contributed to being nearly egged, being accosted by a old lady: "so you're a <em>cyclist</em>, etc." and being shouted at for not dismounting, these last few days - the "Relatedness" point as above </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-272964 Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:56:38 +0000 HankChief 272964@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://bangingonaboutbikes.wordpress.com/2018/01/18/on-why-be-safe-be-seen-is-nonsense/" rel="nofollow">https://bangingonaboutbikes.wordpress.com/2018/01/18/on-why-be-safe-be-seen-is-nonsense/</a></p> <p><em>"Riding to work at around 8:30 this January morning, I found myself cycling behind a young lad, about 14-15, for about a mile – I first saw him near Lidl in Prestwich. He had a hi-vis vest, helmet and lights, and obeyed the rules of the road – he didn’t run red lights or ride on pavements. </p> <p>However, his exemplary behaviour did not guarantee his safety: on the contrary, at the hands of the north Manchester car commuters, he was put in serious danger at least five times in the space of a mile, which I managed to capture on camera and am posting here to illustrate just how careless – callous even – some drivers are around people cycling."</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-244570 Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:17:41 +0000 crowriver 244570@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Good for you! More power to your hill climbing knees! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-244531 Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:17:14 +0000 Colonies_Chris 244531@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On a quiet road outside Selkirk this weekend, a young man in a sporty car drove alongside me, wound down the window and advised me that I should wear some hi-viz for my own safety. He was perfectly pleasant about it, genuinely trying to be helpful, but as (a) it was 3 o'clock on a reasonably bright afternoon and (b) I was labouring hard up a long hill, I wasn't inclined to engage in reasoned debate. I pointed out forcefully - with what spare breath I had - that anyone who couldn't see me in those circumstances shouldn't be allowed to drive, and that he really was trying to offload the responsibility of drivers to drive to a safe standard. He sped off, no doubt offended, probably to tell stories of the angry and unreasonable cyclist he'd tried to help. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-244187 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 18:07:41 +0000 I were right about that saddle 244187@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The color was chosen because it attracts attention and is noticed quickly in peripheral vision, faster than any other color. Scientists describe this as follows: "Lateral peripheral vision for detecting yellows is 1.24 times greater than for red."</p> <p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_bus_yellow" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_bus_yellow</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-244186 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 17:59:43 +0000 Arellcat 244186@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not new. DfT's "Road Accidents Great Britain 1991" found that yellow cars had the fewest accidents, while black cars had the most.</p> <p>(The AA was keen on this statistic for its insurance offering in the late 90s, mainly to 'prove' that you could get the lowest premium from them, in the vein that it was easier than having your car repainted.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-244174 Tue, 07 Mar 2017 14:15:22 +0000 neddie 244174@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Time for hi-viz paint for cars:?</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39190135" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39190135</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136628 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:13:28 +0000 PS 136628@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@twq Yeah - there's so little stigma attached to mobile phone use at the moment that people don't really think about it. They might look a little sheepish if you call them out on it, but that's it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136622 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:55:18 +0000 twq 136622@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@PS I saw a van driver on his phone driving past Porty Police station last night. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136621 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:46:57 +0000 PS 136621@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There needs to be a real effort to stigmatise inattentive driving, just like there was for drink driving.</p> <p>Tell people who drive with iced up windscreens that they are bloody idiots, make them a laughing stock and subject of derision. Same for mobile phone/tablet use - the guy eating cereal at the wheel quickly became an object of derision becuase that's obviously mental behaviour; we need a proper campaign that establishes phone use at the wheel as mental, too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136618 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:29:52 +0000 sg37409 136618@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well, it does say motons might not be able to see out their windows, so take care. Theres not much point in banging on about motoring stupidity on this website beyond this.</p> <p>The cyclescheme website should be concerned with both badly lit cyclists and those inexperienced enough to know little about crap driving standards in the winter months.</p> <p>For me, its critical to be conspicuous. I dont take this as excusing people for not being able to drive safely. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136598 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:31:38 +0000 Instography 136598@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>OK. Here's what I think the difference is. If you're concerned about cyclists who are inadequately lit you say something like:</p> <p>- if you don't make even the basic effort to make it possible for drivers to see you - lights front and back, light clothing with reflectives - then you put yourself and other road users at serious risk of injury and death.</p> <p>If you're concerned about cyclists being the victims of inattentive drivers:</p> <p>- while cyclists have every right to expect drivers to be paying constant attention to the roads and to see a cyclist who is adequately lit we know that they don't always do that. They don't clear their windscreens properly in ice and snow, they use mobile phones ... so cyclists need to take extra care and make extra effort to make sure drivers see them. </p> <p>You see the difference? </p> <p>The cycle scheme "advice" identifies the correct problem but places all the responsibility on the cyclist. The cyclists' actions aren't described as mitigation for other people's errors or lapses, they are described as the cyclists' duty, their responsibility. That, I think, is wrong. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136594 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:50:03 +0000 sg37409 136594@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That type of criticism would be best coming from the AA/RAC/IAM/Pick your own motoring website*. Putting motoring advice on a website for cyclists isn't really going to help. </p> <p>Pretty sure the motoring websites will have advice like this already. I'd like to see the kind of TV ads that Australia seem to have, where they're not afraid to call a space a spade/bloody idiot/etc. </p> <p>So far as this advice on the cycle scheme website goes, its perfectly reasonable. We might all be adequately lit on this website, but my commute home I saw 2 other cyclists who weren't. Thats a pretty high proportion of the cyclists I saw. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136590 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:35:58 +0000 Greenroofer 136590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Instography: I suppose they are treading a fine line. There's quite a bit of implicit criticism (saying someone is distracted by an iced-up windscreen isn't exactly complimentary, after all) but it could be a bit more explicit just once, somewhere, and it's not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136577 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:53:44 +0000 Instography 136577@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's not that it's "realistic", it's that it's so bloody accepting, so acquiescent in the face of downright reckless driving. I'm not expecting it do to a full-on, both barrels Beztweets excoriation of the drivers it's trying to save cyclists from but there's not a hint that there's anything at all wrong with drivers setting off with only a pinhole of clear windscreen. No suggestion that it would be reasonable to expect drivers to clear their heads of their social calendars and bloody pay attention. No, just you light up. Put on an extra glow. You spend the money and do the work so that they don't have to. Because we aren't affected by the sun and we don't have social calendars. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136566 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:38:36 +0000 Greenroofer 136566@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Apart from the bit that could be victim-blaming, I thought the rest of it talked a lot of sense, actually.</p> <p>In some ways, though, the 'victim-blaming' thing is a bit like the thread that fimm started: whether we like it or not, people in cars <em>are</em> sometimes distracted by their phones/busy social schedules and sometimes they don't clear their windscreens properly. This article felt realistic and pragmatic: it's not how we want things to be, but it's how things actually <strong>are</strong>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136559 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:53:32 +0000 Charlethepar 136559@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If they are 'distracted ..... by iced up windscreens,' then they are clearly breaking the law. often seen, but shouldn't be excused like this.</p> <p>It's all victim blaming. It's excusing drivers unwillingness to give a damn. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136556 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:15:59 +0000 Baldcyclist 136556@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You have to remember, cyclescheme is essentially aimed at getting drivers out of their cars. Best talk language they understand. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136545 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:43:41 +0000 PS 136545@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Sorry mate, I've got a busy social schedule"? </p> <p>Nah, it'll never catch on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-136536 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:54:21 +0000 neddie 136536@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And now victim blaming by Cyclescheme:</p> <p><a href="http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/how-to-stay-visible-to-drivers" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/how-to-stay-visible-to-drivers</a></p> <p><em>December days are short, and drivers might be distracted by low sun, iced-up windscreens or busy social schedules. It's critical to stay conspicuous</em></p> <p>So drivers' busy social schedules are more important than a life? But as long as you've got your hi-viz, you'll be alright... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-131067 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 13:48:56 +0000 spytfyre 131067@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Saw a couple of walkers on the canal last night with the slap straps on their arms miles before I got to them<br /> yes chdot I meant those but hadn't had time to look them up - I like the ones with the built in flashing red LEDs so I think I will grab a set of them for Tigermoth[1] on his scooter on the pavement </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513&page=2#post-130960 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:51:57 +0000 Rosie 130960@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Today's Metro had a wee snippet and pic about yesterday's demo. Described it as "colourful". Of course it's going to be colourful if you get a gang of day-glo cyclists together. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130920 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 18:21:05 +0000 wee folding bike 130920@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Slap straps have an issue with being fun for kids to play with and they often disappear round the house. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130913 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:45:50 +0000 Focus 130913@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You can <em>never</em> have too much visibility at night.</p> <p>On my way home from work several years ago, I was passing the junction just a few metres from my house when a car came from the adjoining road, failing to stop at the give way lines and ploughed into the back of me, sending me rolling metres along the road.</p> <p>I had a reflective jacket, reflective ankle bands, a helmet cover with relective areas, lights fore and aft (2 of each) and spoke reflectors, and still he hit me. Had I used toe clips rather than clipless pedals, I would have been under his car along with my bike.</p> <p>He was very quick to pay for the repairs though. Why?</p> <p>Because he was L&amp;B Police's top surgeon!!! It also turned out he was a family friend! He never was, and never would become, a friend of mine however. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130912 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:31:28 +0000 Focus 130912@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Reflective trouser bands aren't at all dorky, once you get in the habit of using them! ;-)</p> <p>Lidl and Aldi regularly sell a pack of 4 3M Scotchlite velcro bands with 4 red LEDs on them. If it's daylight when I head out, I just keep them in a pocket to avoid the dorky look and once it's dark enough to need them, nobody can see enough of you to say you look like a dork. Simples! ;-)</p> <p>They tend to look that much more visible, I think, because unlike most other reflectives, they are moving relative to the rest of you and your bike, i.e. up and down or in a circle depending on your viewpoint. They also tend to be more at car headlight height.</p> <p><img src="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Qsle71ClL._SY606_.jpg"> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130881 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:30:48 +0000 Darkerside 130881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The bike is daubed in reflective tape (red to rear, amber to sides, and white down the front of both forks).</p> <p>Front and rear reflectors, and steady lights always on.</p> <p>In the dark I add a rear slow pulse thing. In really crap weather I'll turn on the rear magicshine antisocial foglight, but generally only when other cars also have their foglights on.</p> <p>I wear black, generally, with the single exception of gloves, which tend to be hi/viz and reflective for signalling purposes.</p> <p>An idea for a blog post I had was to do front/back/side photos of a number of cyclists in their usual dark weather getup, just for comparison and idea sharing. Didn't really go any further than my mind though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130878 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:11:30 +0000 Instography 130878@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you really want to be safe and take all sensible precautions, the most sensible would be to stop cycling. From the precautions needed alone it's plainly a stupid thing to do if your primary concern is avoiding any kind of injury.</p> <p>Once you've decided to cycle you've adopted some degree of risk and the question now is what is a proportionate response to the risk.</p> <p>I reckon bright lights, front and back, one steady and one blinking for when I'm on road. I switch off the brightest blinkers when I get to the paths. Light coloured top - flat grey with reflective piping for general wear, hi viz yellow with reflective stripes for very dark, foggy, murky days. Other than that, assertive (almost aggressive) positioning. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130876 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:56:10 +0000 Dave 130876@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I don't really understand why cyclists don't take all available and sensible precautions.</em></p> <p>The problem is that 'all available' precautions would make for a pretty miserable existence, and the 'sensible' qualifier is in the eye of the beholder.</p> <p>Take the image above as an example. Pretending to be a policeman is an <em>available</em> precaution for all cyclists and there's at least an argument that it would be sensible (I don't believe in dressing up like a policeman. But you might well be asking whether any of this year's deceased cyclists have died if dressed as policemen?)</p> <p>Ditto luminous trousers. Plenty of cyclists in bright jackets, not so many wearing yellow trousers. Yet they are both available and (arguably) sensible.</p> <p>You only describe yourself as having one light. Why not two, three, or ten front lights? They are available, and (arguably) sensible.</p> <p>Etc etc </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11513#post-130831 Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:27:34 +0000 Coxy 130831@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Often tempted with this idea:</p> <p><img src="http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/polite-think-bike-jacket.jpg"> </p>