http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Rubbish Driving AND Cycling (aka cyclist almost squashed) en Mon, 18 May 2026 23:41:48 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-134810 Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:07:57 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 134810@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not entirely sure I agree with wingpig's original description of this (ie that the lorry was indicating throughout) - it seems to me he only indicated when the cyclist was level with the rear of his trailer. Still, the general positioning of the truck should have given some warning signals to the cyclist. Definitely in the right thread (rubbish driving AND cycling). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-134765 Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:22:53 +0000 algo 134765@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wingpig - it'd be nice to think that cyclist might see that video some day and learn from your riding in exactly the same bit of road... not giving way to pedestrian was pretty rude, riding right in the door zone made me feel nervous, and then that lorry - I don't think there can be much debate about that being pretty much suicidal. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-134750 Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:32:34 +0000 wingpig 134750@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Finally uploaded my cyclist-going-inside-long-left-turning-truck from last month:</p> <p> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9lz2juRfME&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9lz2juRfME&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133403 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:48:15 +0000 ianfieldhouse 133403@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>…I've seen far more people turn into juntions without indicating, than pull out of them without looking…</em></blockquote></p> <p>I must just be unlucky as I would say on average 1-2 people on every one of my daily commutes pulls up to a junction in a manner that (to me) appears like they are going to just pile on straight out into the flow of traffic only to stop - usually 2-3 feet past the give way line. Try cycling down Colinton Road past Watson's of an evening for example! I can't remember the last time someone pulled into a junction ahead of me without indicating. Not saying it doesn't happen frequently, just that it isn't on my radar as something particularly common to me.</p> <p>My take on the video is that I think I probably wouldn't have gone up the inside of the truck, but can't say for sure that I would never do it. As for that stretch of road, I'd prefer to cycle along one of the parallel side streets. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133389 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:12:52 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133389@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yep, though to muddy the waters this particular junction has a pedestrian crossing ten yards further up... ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133386 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 15:11:41 +0000 Min 133386@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Most junctions do not have pedestrian crossings and therefore do not have red men. The pedestrian is relying on drivers indicating, knowing full well that many do not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133378 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:48:42 +0000 cosmok 133378@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can't see the video, but I'm also in the camp of people who would have stayed back until it was crystal clear what was going on. Are we saying that the lorry driver, whose profession is driving, so it's fair to expect a higher standard here, forgot to indicate? In the scheme of dangerous driving its not in the same league as speeding, talking on the phone or running a red light, although it could have resulted in the loss of life all the same. Maybe he did check his mirrors but couldn't see the bike.</p> <p>Someone mentioned the issue of a pedestrian crossing and what if they got hit. Surely they'd have been in wrong as they're crossing on a red man and it's up to them to make sure there's nothing turning, regardless of whether or not it's indicating? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133367 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:31:48 +0000 steveo 133367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Problem is you can ALWAYS predict that drivers are going to do something stupid.</em></p> <p>IF that were the case there would many less deaths on the road. one can assume that a road user may do something stupid but thats not the same thing and either way can be mitigated to a degree by responding to the threat. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133350 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:12:52 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133350@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thinking on it there are loads of ways in which I adapt all the time.</p> <p>I've had pedestrians walk out without looking while the red man is on so many times, if I see people waiting to cross I move slightly further right into the road just in case. I wouldn't be 'wrong' to stay left, and if I hit someone stepping out it would be their fault; but why not adapt so that if they step out we both don't end up on the deck? That's all I'm saying, why wouldn't I take measures that might mean I don't get hurt? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133348 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:09:55 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133348@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A lot of it is about personal risk perception. I've seen far more people turn into juntions without indicating, than pull out of them without looking, therefore I take more care around vehicles such as in the video.</p> <p>I also posted the video upthread of the driver overtaking right into my face. Now that 'can' happen, and did happen, but is rather rare, so I don't ride along stopping every time more than one car is coming the other way in case one tries to overtake.</p> <p>We're taking matters to extremes, when simply in the situation above, having just set off from some lights, with a junction 10 yards further on on the left, and a truck with 'blind spots' that has just been in the cycle lane, and virtually no time to lose by hanging back... I'd have hung back.</p> <p>There are situations where I will go up the left of trucks. Just that that particular instance wasn't one of them for the reasons I've enumerated muchos times.</p> <p>On that same stretch I've had car doors opened on me into the cycle lane. I <em>could</em> therefore say cycling is too dangeours and stop. Or I could be aware that it could happen at any time, keep an eye on those doors, and for any movement from within, and temper my speed if there's a big queue of stationary traffic. It's a response to a specific threat, in the same way that me hanging back from a truck in the above cuircumstances is a response to a specific threat. It does nothing to impede me really, and makes my everyday cycling experience feel a little safer. That's all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133347 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:08:46 +0000 Morningsider 133347@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Urban cycling is really just a series of rapid fire decisions on how best to act in the current circumstances. Cyclists' senses are effectively overwhelmed as we move around and it is easy to miss something that might be important. I suppose experience teaches us to recognise what is important and what is probably extraneous - but it is imperfect and I certainly still find myself thinking "probably shouldn't have done that" from time to time.</p> <p>Should the cyclist have held back - tough call. I probably would have - experience tells me that scaffolding lorries are amongst the worst driven vehicles on the road. However, the cyclist must have viewed things differently.</p> <p>Reminds me of a large building site I visited. A sign at all entrances said "Person responsible for safety on this site" - above a mirror. We are all, in some way, responsible for the safety of all road users around us - including ourselves. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133346 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:04:25 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133346@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>The only logical conclusion to it all is to ban cycling for being too dangerous.</em>"</p> <p>No it's not. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133345 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:03:51 +0000 Min 133345@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Problem is you can ALWAYS predict that drivers are going to do something stupid. ALWAYS. This particular case is only one way in which drivers can kill you. The only logical conclusion to it all is to ban cycling for being too dangerous. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133342 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:57:16 +0000 Nelly 133342@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"How many people on here always give way to drivers waiting to pull out of junction or roundabouts? And also to drivers waiting to turn right at a junction you are crossing"</p> <p>I dont as a rule, but in certain circumstances / light and weather conditions I will try to get eye contact, and if that hasnt happened I may slow down - to be honest, its a daily and subconscious thing. None of that will stop me having a pop at any idiot driver who attempts said maneouvers.</p> <p>I totally get what you are saying, and agree that in all these circumstances one would be 'in the right' - but as mentioned a few times in this thread, we live in an imperfect world, populated by imperfect (and occasionally stupid) people driving much bigger machines - and (in my own opinion) being in the right is no substitute for being in one piece. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133341 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:56:50 +0000 Cyclingmollie 133341@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Min: <em>"So how many people give way?"</em></p> <p>Not me. That's my point really. The driver didn't realise he'd done something dangerous and illegal and would be difficult to re-educate. The cyclist doesn't know he's done something dangerous but perfectly legal. He will be difficult to re-educate. Who would you prioritise with a safety message? I personally would focus on cyclists which makes me sound like Boris. Hmmm. Edit: ...and bl***y Jeremy Vine. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133331 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:43:37 +0000 Min 133331@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Question - </p> <p>How many people on here always give way to drivers waiting to pull out of junction or roundabouts? And also to drivers waiting to turn right at a junction you are crossing?</p> <p>These are both situations under which it is extremely common for motorists to try and drive over you and which your life could probably be extended by a great many years for the sake of a few minutes each journey.</p> <p>We know it to be true and can predict it at every junction. </p> <p>So how many people give way? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133327 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:28:24 +0000 Darkerside 133327@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hurrah for interesting, rational and reasoned debate!</p> <p>I can't see the video at work, so thoughts below based on the descriptions.</p> <p>I cycle (and drive) on the assumption that everyone else will make mistakes. I don't pull out in front of indicating cars until they've slowed to an absolute crawl, I don't sit alongside other vehicles on motorways and I don't filter near junctions (this is easy in Glasgow as we have so few cycle lanes).</p> <p>As CharleThePar elegantly put, this 'add[s] minutes to your journey and years to your life.'</p> <p>This doesn't alter the fact that the driver is at fault. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133326 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:27:21 +0000 Dave 133326@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My 2p: a road has been constructed with a lane for cycling and a lane for driving. Can it be even remotely surprising that people will cycle along in an cycle lane?</p> <p>It's all very well saying "ah, you should sometimes not cycle along in the empty cycle lane if certain conditions apply: particular vehicles are in particular locations, certain road features are a given distance away, and so on" but for better or worse, that's not how we've evolved to behave.</p> <p>Incidentally, I agree completely and I'd like to think that I'd have held back there. But... empty cycle lanes are a massive subconscious cue. If we're going to build them, we can't really blame people for paying less attention to what's going on outside the lane. For all we know, that rider might have held back 99 times out of a hundred, but just didn't make the decision this time.</p> <p>Or they could be MENTAL, of course... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133319 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:04:59 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133319@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>I suspect we agree, it's just a matter of how we cycle in the "now", whilst anticipating and campaigning for the "then" - I'd be concerned that your "now" argument might be used hinder progress on the "then", if taken out of context.</em>"</p> <p>Violent agreement you could say.</p> <p>Of course there are those who worry that campaigning for segregated infrastructure means we'll be banned from the roads thus actually hindering progress.... ;)</p> <p>The 'what if' argument was more just in that specific instance where the cyclist almost got flattened. The 'what if' was essentially my positioning behind where it was irritating having to wait for a non-indicating truck to complete the turn, but not life-threatening. But I see where you're coming from in the wider context - as long as we can all continue cycling without being squished I'll be happy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133317 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 13:01:14 +0000 Roibeard 133317@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC - We've no disagreement on the specifics of this case, I just didn't think the new tack ("what if the cyclist hadn't...") is a particularly helpful one in a general sense.</p> <p>I'd like to see the burden being placed on those with physics on their side, and roads designed to minimise the risk presented by errors in exercising that responsibility, rather than entertaining the "it's grand, as long as you keep your wits about you" discussion.</p> <p>I suspect we agree, it's just a matter of how we cycle in the "now", whilst anticipating and campaigning for the "then" - I'd be concerned that your "now" argument might be used hinder progress on the "then", if taken out of context.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133304 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:32:16 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133304@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>So, yes, the cyclist has the right to do what he did, and in ideal world he would come to no grief in doing so, so he is not "in the wrong". However, he should also be aware that he is operating within the confines of an imperfect system alongside hundreds of other imperfect beings. Accidents/incidents do happen, but it's almost always better when they don't happen to you.</em>"</p> <p>Can all of my posts be deleted and just replaced with this? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=3#post-133303 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:30:35 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133303@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>What if he had been walking and wanted to cross the road? Would he have had to wait until such time as there were no motor vehicles just in case one of them wanted to turn without indicating? Because that sort of thing happens very frequently. Is the pedestrian an idiot for trying to cross the road without waiting for all the motorists to drive away or come to a halt?</em>"</p> <p>Well when I'm crossing a road I stop at the side, check left and right, and cross when safe to do so (and <em>probably</em> wouldn't be doing so at a junction). In much the same way on a bike I'm looking ahead and left and right and judging when it is safe to undertake a particular manouevre, which wouldn't include passing a truck on the left just before a junction (whether indicating or not).</p> <p>Maybe I'm more risk averse than most on here. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133302 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:23:54 +0000 PS 133302@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not sure where this argument is heading, but I'll throw in my tuppence:</p> <p>Yes, the cyclist has every right to bomb along a clear cyclelane up the side of stationary/slow moving vehicles; </p> <p>However, experience of other road users' unpredictability tells me that drivers can do unexpected things, especially in queues;</p> <p>Experience of trucks/vans/commercial drivers also tells me that they are particular bad for doing the unexpected - whether due to "blindspots" (also known as not looking), over-confidence, big-vehicle bullying, impatience, tight deadlines or a perceived god-given right to do whatever they want cos it's their job and who are you to question their driving? - so I would take extra care when passing them;</p> <p>Experience of queues also tells me to try to be prepared for all sort of hazards - passenger doors flung open, unseen peds stepping out from between cars, dogs, squirrels, anything really - and when you're nipping up a narrow cyclelane, I know you do not have much of an escape route.</p> <p>So, yes, the cyclist has the right to do what he did, and in ideal world he would come to no grief in doing so, so he is not "in the wrong". However, he should also be aware that he is operating within the confines of an imperfect system alongside hundreds of other imperfect beings. Accidents/incidents do happen, but it's almost always better when they don't happen to you. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133299 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:20:44 +0000 Charlethepar 133299@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The way I look at it is this: keeping well out of the way of big trucks can add minutes to your journey and years to your life. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133298 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:20:00 +0000 steveo 133298@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>You would never be driving in the left hand lane of a two-lane road? Never ever? </em></p> <p>And have a truck sudenly turn across your path like that? </p> <p>Your proposing a situation where your lane is flowing and his is stopped dead, the truck then decides to move across your lane and into a side street. Where the trucker is unaware an inside lane exisits or is unwilling to consider motor traffic may be using it whilst executing the manouver. Yeah it think it a pretty unreasonable set of assumptions.</p> <p>Equally as a pedestrian you wouldn't be moving up the inside of the vehicle in this maner. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133295 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:13:33 +0000 Min 133295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I'm with WC here, I actually tried to think of a reasonable scenario where I'd be in that position in the car and couldn't. </em></p> <p>You would never be driving in the left hand lane of a two-lane road? Never ever? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133294 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:12:15 +0000 Min 133294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What if he had been walking and wanted to cross the road? Would he have had to wait until such time as there were no motor vehicles just in case one of them wanted to turn without indicating? Because that sort of thing happens very frequently. Is the pedestrian an idiot for trying to cross the road without waiting for all the motorists to drive away or come to a halt? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133290 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:03:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133290@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Actually, Roibeard, that use of the 'precautionary principle' is a little like the 'what mext?' statements you see in the Daily Wail comments ;) (as in a story on speedbumps going in on a street and someone comments, what next? men with flags in front of cars again?).</p> <p>I'm not sure advocating taking a little care going up the inside of trucks at junctions will result in signs telling cyclists to dismount at every junction they come to.</p> <p>Let's ask one more question, do cyclists carry any responsibility for their own actions and safety, or otherwise, of those actions? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133289 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:03:08 +0000 steveo 133289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm with WC here, I actually tried to think of a <em>reasonable</em> scenario where I'd be in that position in the car and couldn't. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11648&page=2#post-133288 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:54:45 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 133288@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Let's stretch it a bit further - If the cyclist had not been a cyclist would he have been almost flattened?</em>"</p> <p>Erm. no. But then they wouldn't have been on the road in that position to make that decision. not sure I see the purpose of the extension of the question... </p>