http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: PSCO's given new powers to fine those without reflectors... en Sun, 17 May 2026 20:06:44 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136936 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:25:35 +0000 Dave 136936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@adamthekiwi - thanks, I've learned something new.</p> <p>I remain unconvinced by your interpretation I'm afraid. It seems bizarre to add a requirement that the pedals can be seen from front and back but not take that to mean front and back of the bike.</p> <p>Perhaps we'll see this tested soon, going by the OP? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136935 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:22:38 +0000 zesty 136935@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No reflectors on either of my bikes, anyway they'd need to catch me first to fine me </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136922 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:59:51 +0000 adamthekiwi 136922@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dave - no, there is specific number plate legislation [Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001].</p> <p>The RLVR 89 does make specific mention of of the obscuration of the mandated rear reflector and rear lights but does not explicitly mention pedal reflectors in this section. I would stand by the interpretation that the pedal reflectors do not have to be seen from behind the bike, if the pedals can not be seen from behind the bike - there is no requirement in law that this is the case. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136885 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:35:31 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 136885@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I know there's a general view of the 'law is an ass', but honestly, I think anyone who was ticketed about this and then wanted to challenge it would end up in court saying "Yes, I didn't have pedal reflectors, but I had two lights on the front, two on the back, a reflectively striped jacket, a reflector on the back, and a giant tiger on my back rack dressed in a ra-ra skirt" and sense would prevail.</p> <p>I think this is something of nothing. Yes, the law is being changed to allow PCSOs to ticket people, but (I've not read the actual new law) is it a general 'PCSOs can now ticket people for this range of offences' or <em>only</em> granting them the powers for pedal reflectors?</p> <p>If it's the former I'd expect this is simply to take the pressure off the police and they will ticket people for the same things the police used to, and would do if they had the resources, and... the police never used to ticket for this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136876 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:02:55 +0000 Dave 136876@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So I can obscure up my numberplate so long as it's still visible from the rear of the numberplate, just not from the rear of the car?</p> <p>Wishing it were so, but I suspect that's not how it would be interpreted.</p> <p>It would be handy for recumbents since you could easily have reflectors visible from the rear of the pedal, even if (as in Arellcat's case) the pedals are inside a shell... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877&page=2#post-136874 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:58:25 +0000 adamthekiwi 136874@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The RVLR 89 (and amendments) describe (in schedule 20) the angles of visibility as:<br /> "Such that the reflector on the leading edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the front and the reflector on the trailing edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the rear".</p> <p>It does not specify to the rear of the bicycle, so I think that 'rear of the pedal' could easily be assumed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136864 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:16:20 +0000 Dave 136864@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Since panniers obscure your rearward pedal reflector for most of its circuit, it's also an offence to ride with panniers at night - the same as if you've put something (like a bike rack!) on the back of your car where it covers up the lights and reflectors there. Alas, there's no acceptable "repeater board" arrangement for bikes :)</p> <p>I guess if ticketed you'd need to go to court and argue with the magistrate that they weren't /significantly/ obstructed or whatever, but the law doesn't say "plainly visible to the rear (except if hidden three quarters of the time by luggage)" so I'm not sure it would be a valid defence. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136862 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:56:58 +0000 EddieD 136862@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Over half the bikes in the shed here are illegal for England and Wales.</p> <p>I'm heading to England next week, so I'll have to try and make my chameleon street legal for there - I think I'll have to tape my old spd adaptors to them.</p> <p>I'm fairly sure I've got an old rear reflector I can tape to my down tube somewhere</p> <p>As for the 'bent...darn... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136861 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:47:29 +0000 DaveC 136861@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Insto "<em>I have a small mountain of removed front reflectors that I could attach if the need arose, although I don't think it ever will.</em>"</p> <p>I'll take one (or two) off your hands if you don't mind? My bikes are legal apart from the pedal reflectors. I have <a href="http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/a9004/pedal-top-with-reflectors-for-spd-pedals-sm-pd22.html?lg=en&amp;cr=GBP&amp;cn=gb&amp;gclid=CIWUl5aDrbsCFUtP3godqiAAZQ">these</a> on the Dawes as I have Shimano pedals but my Cotic has BBB pedals and they don't accommodate the reflectors. My B&amp;M Lyt has a built in reflector but the IQ Cyo does not... :O( </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136856 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:15:52 +0000 Min 136856@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Or if you pedal with your toes pointing down then you are WRONG AND MUST BE STOPPED.<br /> (We already knew that about recumbents..) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136854 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:12:39 +0000 chdot 136854@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"the lighting regs are pretty clear that pedal reflectors must be visible - they state under Angle of visibility that "Such that the reflector on the leading edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the front and the reflector on the trailing edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the rear".</p> <p>So that's no recumbents at night. </p> <p>Win.</p> <p>I mean 'we' had better start a campaign to change the law. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136851 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:03:46 +0000 Morningsider 136851@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Greenroofer - Hmmm, yes - I was wrong about the front reflector. These are not a mandatory requirement - but the pedal reflectors are, unless your bike was manufactured prior to 1 October 1985. Sorry about that - should take more time to read things. </p> <p>SRD - the lighting regs are pretty clear that pedal reflectors must be visible - they state under Angle of visibility that "Such that the reflector on the leading edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the front and the reflector on the trailing edge of each pedal is plainly visible to the rear". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136823 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:31:11 +0000 Snowy 136823@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stupid law. Period. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136808 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:52:44 +0000 allebong 136808@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The change in law (such as it is) is simply to allow PCSOs to deal with people breaking the exisintg law - those laws on pedal reflectors and non-adapted bikes only carrying one person have been in place for ages. </em></p> <p>Thinking about it, as you say I don't know if anyone has ever been stopped/fined by regular police officers for not having reflectors, but that would beg the question why change the law so PCSOs can enforce it?</p> <p>I have this idea that PCSOs are going to be informed they can nab people without reflectors and we'll soon see the first case where someone who is otherwise impeccably lit and visible gets fined for not having them.</p> <p>Or I might be assuming the worst and everything will in fact carry on as normal. Though as Greenroofer said I'd hate to have an accident after dark and for a devious lawyer to find out my lights aren't BS-approved etc - though that's obviously been an issue all these years anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136803 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:26:16 +0000 Greenroofer 136803@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ Morningsider: the CTC puts the regs slightly differently: <a href="http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations">http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations</a></p> <p>I think there's a requirement for a new bike to be sold with front white reflector, rear red reflector and wheel reflectors, but it's not a requirement to retain the front reflector and the wheel reflectors, whereas it <em>is</em> a requirement to keep the rear red one. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136801 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:22:46 +0000 Greenroofer 136801@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC - agree that it's unlikely that anyone's even been pulled over (FWIW I mentioned the law about cycle reflectors to a colleague whose husband is (a) in the Police (b) a keen cyclist and (c) aspires to be/has become a bike cop and she thought that he didn't know about it) <strong>but</strong> you can be sure that when you're on the witness stand in the case seeking compensation for your injury caused by a driver who wasn't paying attention, the defence lawyer will point out your missing reflectors and ascribe the collision to that and that alone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136752 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:19:31 +0000 Stickman 136752@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Good comment on the original article linked to above:</p> <p><em>My issue with this piece of news is that specific laws are being passed to allow wider enforcement of a pretty pointless regulation which isn't even fully listed in the highway code. Meanwhile cyclists are being killed and injured by cars during daylight hours, in flourescent, hi-vis jackets, in cycle lanes!<br /> All this faffing around the edges with reflector enforcement, police ticketing quotas, helmet comments and red-light running is ignoring the fact that people are hurtling around our cities in several tons of metal where they cant see clearly around them or wont look because they are too busy on the phone."</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136746 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:42:35 +0000 SRD 136746@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@arelcat surely it doesn't say the pedal reflectors have to be visible. just that they have to be fitted. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136744 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:34:15 +0000 Cyclingmollie 136744@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thank you morningsider. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136741 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:27:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 136741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>... why do I think the answer might be no?</em>"</p> <p>I'm not sure given I'm not aware (anyone?) of a single person ever having been pulled over for not having pedal reflectors despite (as Morningsider points out) the relevant lighting regs having been in play since 1989.</p> <p>The change in law (such as it is) is simply to allow PCSOs to deal with people breaking the exisintg law - those laws on pedal reflectors and non-adapted bikes only carrying one person have been in place for ages. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136740 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:27:18 +0000 Arellcat 136740@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And despite having two StVZO-compliant headlights, built-in rear light, brake light, indicators, front, side and rear reflective panels, and a bell, my velomobile is illegal because the pedals are a) clipless and reflectorless, and b) covered by bodywork.</p> <p>In fact, almost any recumbent is technically illegal to ride during the hours of darkness because of the pedals, whose reflectors you wouldn't see even if they were fitted with them.</p> <p>Glad to see UK law is up to speed on everything. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136738 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:22:58 +0000 Min 136738@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think my folder is but the others definitely aren't. My road bike doesn't have any at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136733 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:59:07 +0000 Morningsider 136733@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The relevant section of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill (S.142) only applies to England and Wales - plus, there are no police community support officers in Scotland.</p> <p>The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 require:</p> <p>Each pedal to be fitted with two amber reflectors.<br /> One rear red reflector<br /> One front facing white reflector</p> <p>All must be fitted to the bike.</p> <p>Section 24 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 states:</p> <p>"Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person."</p> <p>Pretty sure "adapted for the carriage of more than one person" covers properly fitted child seats. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136731 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:56:24 +0000 Uberuce 136731@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>All my bikes are illegal, but I suspect rather heavily this law will only ever be applied to people who are guilty of the offence of Cheeking Up a Plod. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136730 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:54:27 +0000 minus six 136730@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So is this "except for viewers in Scotland", then?</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7scMC7YSDQ" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7scMC7YSDQ</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136728 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:30:52 +0000 PS 136728@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>None of my bikes have front or rear reflectors fitted to them. Although my saddle bag has a reflector (white, threfore non-compliant). </p> <p>I think I have one set of pedals with old-skool orange reflectors on them. </p> <p>I guess the intention is that it targets the ninja cyclist as opposed to the sensible LED'ed up punter, but it's such a catch-all sledgehammer... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136727 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:30:37 +0000 chdot 136727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ S</p> <p>Can't remember wording, basically -</p> <p>'Must not carry passengers unless designed to do so/having proper provision'</p> <p>I.e. Kid's seat fine, long rack without back more debatable. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136726 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:29:29 +0000 cb 136726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm sure I saw something on Twitter that said this didn't apply to Scotland. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136725 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:28:41 +0000 ARobComp 136725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Note that this is also on the same piece of legislation as illegal firearms and other super bad crimes. Interesting. </p> <p>I really feel that the only people that lose here are people who cycle a lot in cities. eg. Myself. I have lots of bikes that do not comply with this (racing/cx/other) yet I'd suggest that I'm also an experienced rider who rides almost exclusively on well lit roads (I can't think of one road I go on that I would not be completely visible on via street lights) However as a central town cyclist I porbably run the risk of being stopped and not having reflectors on my pedals and therefore fined. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11877#post-136724 Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:25:02 +0000 Instography 136724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My rear reflector is built into my rear dynamo light so I'm always lit front and rear and reflecting on the back. I have a small mountain of removed front reflectors that I could attach if the need arose, although I don't think it ever will.</p> <p>I doubt the pedal reflectors thing will ever be enforced. Or at least no more often than a 20mph limit. </p>