http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Jim Orr: Shared cycling spaces needn’t be disaster" en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 07:45:34 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137819 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:10:05 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 137819@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Where's kaputnik when you need him? That would make sense to me crowriver. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137816 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:05:43 +0000 crowriver 137816@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Presumably the remains of the former Newcraighall colliery? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137811 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:32:42 +0000 Coxy 137811@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think you'd have to be there quite early to avoid the local yoof on trials bikes.</p> <p>There was somewhere similar past the Musselburgh lagoons, but it's a bit more manicured now. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137806 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:28:11 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 137806@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think it's old mining land and so there's always the chance of a big hole swallowing someone out. Which might count against it as a CX venue. Need to find out who owns the land! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137805 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:26:26 +0000 Edinburgh Cycle Training 137805@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Seem to recall seeing scrambling bikes on that land, and having similar thoughts about a cyclocross trail, whilst i've been driving along The Wisp. </p> <p>From the wisp though the area seems fenced off with "Danger" signs on it! the aerial view shows an odd shaped bit of fenced off land, but a bigger area not fenced off!</p> <p>If Hunters Hall does become a cycling hub,maybe that could be incorporated. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137803 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:10:14 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 137803@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.blipfoto.com/entry/1351472">Riding up there</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137802 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:09:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 137802@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think it might have been a 'planned but never happened' thing. There are loads of paths like that down at Granton.</p> <p>It's actually the area up there I thought would be great for an Edinburgh Cross Race. Loads of space, some trails already cut by people who go about on scrambler bikes, and bags of parking at the shopping centre. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137800 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:04:23 +0000 Edinburgh Cycle Training 137800@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyone familiar with this area between fort kinnaird and Western VW (looking towards Niddrie)</p> <p>closed/unfinished road but a shared use path sign now almost hidden by vegetation.</p> <p>Is/was there a path there? </p> <p><a href="https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=fort+kinnaird&amp;ll=55.931017,-3.108179&amp;spn=0.00032,0.00066&amp;t=h&amp;z=21&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=55.931017,-3.108179&amp;panoid=lveFT_lmDUtzJR0YrcDp2w&amp;cbp=12,260.55,,0,7.36" rel="nofollow">https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=fort+kinnaird&amp;ll=55.931017,-3.108179&amp;spn=0.00032,0.00066&amp;t=h&amp;z=21&amp;layer=c&amp;cbll=55.931017,-3.108179&amp;panoid=lveFT_lmDUtzJR0YrcDp2w&amp;cbp=12,260.55,,0,7.36</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137241 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:13:06 +0000 PS 137241@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave I don't think the heat on shared use is about the off-road paths (NEPN or the Canal), it's about city centre pavements being made dual use. There are plenty of peds using the pavement at the bottom of the Mound, on North St Andrew Street, Buccleuch Street, Rankeillor Street etc. </p> <p>Some of these additions might help to an extent, but they are half-way houses that create conflict and leave both cyclists and peds disgruntled. They also don't look particularly future-proofed if the volumes of cyclists that CEC claims to be targetting ever came to pass. A visionary council of a world-class cycling city would be doing something more substantial (like Copenhagen lanes taking space from roads rather than space from pavements). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137235 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:59:49 +0000 Morningsider 137235@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The canal and NEPN are fairly rubbish for pedestrian commuters. There are very few access points, they take meandering routes and are home to high speed cyclists. Also, pedestrians have the luxury of their own segregated network - free of both motorised vehicles and cyclists. </p> <p>Lots of people walk in Edinburgh due to the short commuting distances (lots of quite central flats)and a fairly pleasant walking environment. The city clearly has a culture of active travel - build a decent cycle network and there will be a huge increase in cyclists. Safe cycle tracks along major radial routes and a cycle permeable city centre (effectively a novice/unconfident cyclist black hole at present) and you are on to a winner. Truly, build it and they will come. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137228 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:33:16 +0000 Instography 137228@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's like a parallel of the Brown / Dugdale "debate".</p> <p>Irving: shared use isn't safe. It frightens old people and kiddies. Some cyclists don't like it.<br /> Orr: works fine in some other places</p> <p>Err, that's it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137226 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:29:13 +0000 crowriver 137226@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The canal was empty between whatever the estate is called that's built on it (name escapes me) </em></p> <p>Wester Hailes? I recall going fishing with my dad in the canal in the 1970s: still blocked off in those days. Caught a large pike.</p> <p><em>I pass fewer than 3 pedestrians per mile of shared path, but up to ten riders (just going the other way) per mile.</em></p> <p>Careful, with those low numbers next thing you know folk will be arguing the NEPN should be converted into roads (or tram lines). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137221 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:09:23 +0000 fimm 137221@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I like the line from the Living Streets link that SRD posted: "<em>I welcome the support of the grassroots cycling organisations who don’t wish to see pavements converted into cycle paths.</em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137217 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:34:04 +0000 Dave 137217@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>FWIW there were 12 pedestrians on NEPN this morning who weren't school kids, 10 who were, and 45 (one way) riders.</p> <p>The canal was empty between whatever the estate is called that's built on it (name escapes me) and Harrison Park, but at either end there were quite a few folk - I made it 13 peds to 28 (one way) riders.</p> <p>Incidentally, I don't think that the absolute numbers are that important of course - otherwise it would be quite hypocritical to claim that we need space for cycling on roads where we make up just a couple of percentage points. </p> <p>However, I often feel that discussion of the existing shared space routes makes it sound like there are millions of dogs and peds and one or two death-dealing cyclists mowing through them. </p> <p>Nothing could be further from the truth, I pass fewer than 3 pedestrians per mile of shared path, but up to ten riders (just going the other way) per mile.</p> <p>Should we ban peds? Hardly. But it should be used as an argument to try and draw demand onto space reallocated from motorised traffic, rather than a stick to beat up people cycling. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900&page=2#post-137182 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:21:18 +0000 Nelly 137182@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Its been said many times, "they" need the political gumption to lose a number of key routes to non-motorised transport.</p> <p>"They" need to be prepared to ride out the inevitable flak for what will make a better future.</p> <p>"They" need to rethink what legacy they want to leave our kids.</p> <p>Remember the uproar when "they" banned fags in pubs for the public good?</p> <p>Apart from that the transport strategy is all going swimmingly.</p> <p>p.s. shared paths? Maybe but not enough. But car free roads? Definitely. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137170 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:49:03 +0000 SRD 137170@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>sorry if this has already been posted, but a sensible piece here from Living Streets, which I guess is what Jim is responding to: </p> <p><a href="http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/re-designing-edinburgh-to-benefit-pedestrians-and-cycling" rel="nofollow">http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/re-designing-edinburgh-to-benefit-pedestrians-and-cycling</a></p> <p>I particularly appreciate Keith noting that 'grassroots' campaigns are on his side on this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137169 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:47:43 +0000 PS 137169@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"....the fact that in Edinburgh 35 per cent of all journeys are on foot,..."</em></p> <p>I can well believe that. I'd say 90% of my journeys are on foot (and have been for as long as I've been in Edinburgh). I walk to work (too short a distance to bother with cycling), I used to walk to Uni, and walked pretty much everywhere back then. I'd say a lot of my neighbours are pretty similar - I see only a few getting in their cars to go to work. </p> <p>The 35% figure just shows what an untapped "market" there is for cycling, if only CEC would put in the appropriate infrastructure. It also shows the extent to which a lot of people are being inconvenienced to the benefit of the motoring few.</p> <p>Of course, pretty much all journeys involve an element of pedestrianisation, so everybody wins... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137168 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:45:12 +0000 crowriver 137168@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm assuming 'peak commuting time' is the hour or so before 9am? (If we assume many folk in the city are workung classic '9 to 5' office hours...</p> <p>NEPN pretty busy from 8 'till 9am, but it depends where. Further out west it's pretty quiet. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137165 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:18:03 +0000 steveo 137165@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@dave granted, though are we talking exclusively peak commuting time? Because I don't think we'll have bus Lane style times on these shared paths. I realise we're not making policy decisions here but a random selection of days in a &lt;60 minute window isn't exactly definitive. </p> <p>Re the Ardmillan cut through, I've never seen any one actually use it... But since we're on sweeping statements, 10m further down and Gorgie is one of the busiest streets in the city (out side of the very centre) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137164 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:05:42 +0000 Dave 137164@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Incidentally, the bottom of Ardmillan Terrace has had one of these cut-across lanes for years. I only realised relatively recently when I experimented with going up the one way to the junction directly and realised I could mount up and ride off that way.</p> <p>Nobody seems to have died yet? Perhaps because it's also a very quiet spot? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137163 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:01:27 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 137163@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'd count at the top of Lothian Road, but I think I'd run out of fingers for pedestrians. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137162 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:58:23 +0000 Dave 137162@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo the time I leave the house varies by no more than 45 minutes. But peak commuting time is what was being talked about, and that's when I'm commuting at least.</p> <p>Someone else will have to do a count outside that time if they want to talk about that. It's quite good mental exercise... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137160 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:30:58 +0000 steveo 137160@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Its also a pretty narrow window on which to count anything, presuming you arrive at your office at pretty much the same time every day. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137159 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:25:01 +0000 Dave 137159@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Even the NEPN is pretty devoid of peds at peak commuting times."</p> <p>Not in my experience. Lots of children being escorted to school in the mornings in the Water of Leith/Trinity/Inverleith/Canonmills areas of NEPN.</em></p> <p>I haven't done it for a few weeks, but I was keeping a regular count of the different modes on the canal and NEPN on the way into work.</p> <p>Generally it would be ~5 pedestrians / 20-30 riders on the canal between the bypass and Harrison Park. On NEPN I'd typically count &lt; 20 pedestrians between Haymarket and the shore, and ~60 riders.</p> <p>The canal is busier in the morning than the evening for peds, NEPN the converse.</p> <p>(Edited to add: those are one-way bike counts but two-way ped counts, so the number of riders is potentially double if you'd done a static count) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137158 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:08:27 +0000 Arellcat 137158@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"cyclists were reasonably slow "</p> <p>This is not the case in the UK. Most are in a hurry, impatient, and rude when challenged…</em></p> <p>Maybe so. But in the UK's city environments this is a learned response, not a desire. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137155 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:00:12 +0000 crowriver 137155@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Edinburgh has always been a city of walkers and we want to support that. As always, it is simply a matter of getting the balance right." </p> <p>That is, ensuring that motorists are inconvenienced as little as possible, right Cllr Orr?</p> <p>Min has it on the nail. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137152 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:57:44 +0000 crowriver 137152@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Even the NEPN is pretty devoid of peds at peak commuting times. </em></p> <p>Not in my experience. Lots of children being escorted to school in the mornings in the Water of Leith/Trinity/Inverleith/Canonmills areas of NEPN. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137150 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:55:08 +0000 steveo 137150@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Also the old nugget of cycle paths; ceding priority at every drive way. This is not a factor in Livi where you never cross a road but would be a serious pita in Edinburgh, its annoying enough walking. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137145 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:39:00 +0000 kaputnik 137145@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Edinburgh is in a grid system</em></p> <p>Apart from the Georgian parts, it's more like patches of non-regular grids and intermediary triangles, joined together at jaunty angles, with a variety of amusing 3, 4 and 5-way junctions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11900#post-137141 Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:17:28 +0000 steveo 137141@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But if you start prescribing where people can cycle you'll end up with the arguments that the George St. facility announcement caused. </p> <p>Can't cycle on Princes St. you need to use Queens St. Can't ride down Lothian Road you need to use ???<br /> Bridges? Leith <strike>Road</strike> Walk, Leith Street, Queensferry St? Marchmont? </p> <p>There are probably plenty places where shared use might be okay but they're a long way from the city centre. The Gyle area is the only one which immediately springs to mind and even then round the bus stops these pavements can get busy. </p>