http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Bike/car Speed limits (aka glasgow madness) en Sun, 31 May 2026 08:40:01 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-141235 Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:08:41 +0000 wee folding bike 141235@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Made it to the Record:</p> <p><a href="http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/patrick-harvie-glasgows-parks-not-3089975" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/patrick-harvie-glasgows-parks-not-3089975</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-140703 Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:08:57 +0000 gembo 140703@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nippy </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-140697 Fri, 24 Jan 2014 01:45:24 +0000 Snowy 140697@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Bikes not allowed to be cycled in the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh</em></p> <p>...as a member of the staff was quick to point out to me, regarding the 3mph progress of my daughter on her *balance bike*...insisted we leave. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-140660 Thu, 23 Jan 2014 14:04:21 +0000 cb 140660@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/5-mph-bike-speed-limit-proposed-for-glasgow-parks-1-3277118">http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/5-mph-bike-speed-limit-proposed-for-glasgow-parks-1-3277118</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-140605 Thu, 23 Jan 2014 00:11:11 +0000 Focus 140605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>While in the relatively safe confines of empty hospital roads tonight*, I tried riding at a slow but comfortable pace and then looked at my Garmin - 8.5mph. Yes, I <em>can</em> ride safely at 5mph (I passed my Cycling Proficiency!) but it's not a good speed to ride at as you are concentrating more on balance than spatial awareness compared to riding at 10mph.</p> <p>In short, 5mph could actually be more dangerous on a bike than 10mph. Clearly, this was not thought through <strike>by anyone with real world cycling experience</strike>.</p> <p>*(Though not always safe as I experience twice in 20 seconds the other night). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075&page=2#post-140514 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:31:14 +0000 Darkerside 140514@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider: thanks. I've no idea how valid the slant I've put on Management Rules is, but my logic was:<br /> - Land Reform Act is very important and a lynchpin of Scottish policy.<br /> - LRA specifically states that it can be altered by byelaws. It does not mention anything else.<br /> - Byelaws are more 'official' than Management Rules, which come from an older Act.<br /> - Therefore (with a massive leap of faith), Management Rules cannot restrict the LRA.</p> <p>Having briefly looked around, Edinburgh's Management Rules aren't too bad. Aberdeen's are worse than Glasgow. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140507 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:49:41 +0000 kaputnik 140507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Bikes not allowed to be cycled in the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh</em></p> <p>Neither are joggists. But it's not a council park. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140504 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:43:28 +0000 Morningsider 140504@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Darkerside - nice one! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140481 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:08:37 +0000 Darkerside 140481@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Post up.</p> <p>Sorry, <a href="http://www.darkerside.org/2014/01/glasgow-park-management-rules/">it's a long one</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140470 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:41:37 +0000 gembo 140470@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Bikes not allowed to be cycled in the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh. Notnsure if same in Glasgow which has the Botanics and a subsidiary Arboretum. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140469 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 20:54:54 +0000 Dave 140469@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But how could any responsible cyclist argue against travelling slowly and courteously around pedestrians? Aren't we always complaining when people travel quickly around us?</p> <p>Perhaps 5mph is too fast, and 3mph could be considered? Even more courteous and responsible... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140464 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:37:48 +0000 sallyhinch 140464@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>While it's all very well mandating courtesy and consideration on narrow paths, it does rather blow the whole 'dual network' out of the water: basically Glasgow cyclists are given the choice of Glasgow's roads (which are pretty bloody scary) or a 5mph pootle in the park which isn't going to get anyone to the shops or school or work. If they are going to rely on parks to create a viable and attractive network then at least they have to provide routes that cyclists can use at a reasonable rate to get somewhere. If they aren't willing to do that, then they need to build proper segregated tracks on the roads instead. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140456 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:28:42 +0000 steveo 140456@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If this occurs, take extra care by giving way to walkers where possible or by looking for an alternative route. </em></p> <p>Thats fine then, by dismounting I become a "walker" and the horse riders should then give way...</p> <p>Why not issue the same guidance to both user groups, be poilte, don't be an ****. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140455 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:28:30 +0000 neddie 140455@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The Council couldn't ban cycling through its management rules. The rules can be used to regulate behaviour - including the behaviour of cyclists exercising their access rights.</em></p> <p>This means that if the council wanted to ban cycling, they would only need to impose an unfeasible (low) speed limit e.g. 1mph for bikes. No one would then cycle, as it would be quicker to walk with your bike !!!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140454 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:24:27 +0000 Coxy 140454@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Horse riding</p> <p>Access rights extend to horse riding. Riding on firm or hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks and well-drained ground, causes few problems. On narrow routes, horse riding may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and cyclists. If this occurs, take extra care by giving way to walkers where possible or by looking for an alternative route. </p> <p>If you are riding off-path, particularly in winter, take care to avoid:<br /> •going onto wet, boggy or soft ground, and<br /> •churning up the surface. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140453 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:23:11 +0000 kaputnik 140453@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A family car + passenger (~1,500kg) at 10mph has 60 times the kinetic energy of a heavyish bike and rider (~100kg) at 5mph.</p> <p>The cyclist has to go at ~40mph to have same energy as the car at 10mph.</p> <p>I wonder which we should really be mandating to slow down? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140452 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:21:35 +0000 Dave 140452@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Don't be silly - that would make second class citizens of them.</p> <p>I have to admit that a speed limit lower than people travel on foot does seem pointless. It's hard to walk at 5mph but a standard layman's jogging speed of 8:00/mile is 7.5mph, 50% faster than cyclists. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140450 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:16:45 +0000 steveo 140450@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Are horse riders expected to dismount when they encounter pedestrians or cyclists? Are they advised to avoid soft ground? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140449 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:13:29 +0000 fimm 140449@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry about the capitals, they were in the original.</p> <p>Nothing about speed there... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140448 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:11:55 +0000 fimm 140448@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From the <a href="http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A309336.pdf">Outdoor Access Code</a>: </p> <p>RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOUR BY THE PUBLIC<br /> Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife. If you are cycling off-path, particularly in winter, avoid:<br /> • going onto wet, boggy or soft ground; and<br /> • churning up the surface.</p> <p>RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOUR BY LAND MANAGERS</p> <p>Where possible, work with your local authority and other bodies to help identify paths or routes across your land which are suited for cycling. If you need to put a fence across a path or track then install a gate which allows multi-use access.</p> <p>And </p> <p>Outdoors. This term includes mountains, moorland, farmland (enclosed and unenclosed), forests, woods, rivers, lochs and reservoirs, beaches and the coastline, and open spaces in towns and cities. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140446 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:46:48 +0000 Morningsider 140446@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is a tricky one. The management rules cannot ban cycling in urban parks, that would breach the 2003 Act, but can impose restrictions on where and how you cycle. The 2003 Act requires all bylaws to be compliant with its provisions, but doesn't mention management rules - although I would imagine they also have to be compliant. </p> <p>The question is - do the proposed Glasgow management rules go too far in restricting responsible access rights? I would say they possibly do - your example of banning child cycle training on grass is a great way of showing this.</p> <p>The best way to deal with this is to get as many people as possible to respond to the consultation, highlighting this issue.</p> <p>I wish I could give you a straight answer. The fact that access rights apply in urban areas was something of an unexpected consequenece of the 2003 Act. Everyone was so excited about the right to roam the Scottish countryside, that they never really considered that it would apply in urban areas. After all - everyone can walk in urban parks anyway, cycling was a distant afterthought. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140443 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:05:08 +0000 Darkerside 140443@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry to continue picking your brain on this...</p> <p>So if I take a park that doesn't have a tarmaced path in the direction I want to go, although the 200? Land Reform Act states that I have a right of way via bicycle as long as I behave appropriately, the council can impose park management rules that rescind that right via 1982 legislation?</p> <p>To make an absurd example, I'm not allowed to use flat areas of grass to teach a child how to ride a bike? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140441 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:50:49 +0000 Morningsider 140441@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SRD - quite the opposite. If it is a road, then no speed limit can be applied to bikes - but the speed limit for cars can be set through the normal means. </p> <p>Darkerside - the two Acts sit side by side. The Council couldn't ban cycling through its management rules. The rules can be used to regulate behaviour - including the behaviour of cyclists exercising their access rights.</p> <p>The speed limits in parks aren't set through a TRO, as these only apply to roads. Most (almost all) paths in parks aren't roads, so speed limits are set through the management rules</p> <p>Many public parks have been gifted to the Council and aren't really owned by them - they are part of the "common good fund" and generally can't be sold, as other land owned by the Council can. The Council do have statutory management powers over these parks though. Some parks are simply owned by the Council though - they could sell them tomorrow for development if they wanted and public access could be denied forever. It's all pretty complicated. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140440 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:48:57 +0000 Darkerside 140440@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No importuning either.</p> <p>I can see that being a useful clause for parents. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140438 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:46:27 +0000 Darkerside 140438@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm just reading the existing rules.</p> <p>Thou shalt not beat rugs (or carpets, tapestries, etc) within a Glasgow park. </p> <p>Finger on the pulse of city life, absolutely... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140435 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:28:53 +0000 Darkerside 140435@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's a source of unending frustration that legislation can be so complicated, and that I have no trust at all that Glasgow City Council will ensure what they're doing actually works. Such is life...</p> <p>I haz questions/observations:</p> <p>The Land Reform Act presumably doesn't overrule the earlier Civic Government Act? Seems against the ethos if a council could write out the former by specifically exluding activities in their Management Rules.</p> <p>I note they're actually proposing to double the motor vehicle speed limit.</p> <p>Would the speed limit require a TRO? Or are all bet's off becuase it's private land?</p> <p>Is it private land, in the same sense as my front garden? What's public land?</p> <p>Questions to Google over lunch methinks! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140434 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:28:24 +0000 AKen 140434@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm tempted to ask, who would be checking that cyclists are not exceeding 5mph and how would they be doing this? A brisk walk is about 4mph, after all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140433 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:21:07 +0000 fimm 140433@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It looks as though the old rules say 5mph for everyone... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140432 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:01:14 +0000 steveo 140432@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Without any overriding legislation I expect it’s their ball they can set the rules. Stupid as they may be. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12075#post-140431 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:58:52 +0000 SRD 140431@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Morningsider, leaving aside access rights, are you suggesting that where there are roads in parks, they can have a speed limit of 5mph for bikes and 10 for cars? </p>