CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting en Mon, 06 Apr 2026 06:44:31 +0000 Rosie on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-147304 Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:22:50 +0000 Rosie 147304@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Blogged about the meeting here:- <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2014/04/01/making-it-cool-making-it-normal/" rel="nofollow">http://hurryupharry.org/2014/04/01/making-it-cool-making-it-normal/</a> and here <a href="http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/making-it-cool-making-it-normal/" rel="nofollow">http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/making-it-cool-making-it-normal/</a> Roibeard on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-146998 Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:29:21 +0000 Roibeard 146998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @fimm - it would appear so, or rather mostly so. In researching my postulated Danish summer trip, they are also proud of their "Alps" which rise to the heady height of 171m. The Netherlands are much more impressive with their Mount Vaals being 323m. (cf Arthur's Seat 250m.) Even allowing for drumlins, hills aren't that common given that the Danish regional areas boast panoramic views from hills of 100m (and less!). As for the environment, yes, not jousting with cars means one doesn't have to go fast, but it also doesn't preclude one from going fast - <a href="http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/no-you-are-not-held-up-on-dutch-cycle-paths/">Fast Dutch Cycling</a>. Where speeds are higher, cyclists are separated from pedestrians too... Robert fimm on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-146973 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:23:06 +0000 fimm 146973@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ages ago, I took my Garmin with me when I went on the Brompton to Juniper Green farmers' market. I've just had a look at the trace, and it tells me that I hit just under 40 km/h coming down Lanark Road. That's 24 mph. The thing is, the alternative is you descend a slope like that hard on the brakes, which isn't great either. Is that what they do? Or do the Dutch not have downhills? Greenroofer on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-146972 Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:04:45 +0000 Greenroofer 146972@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ After the PY meet, biketrain, HankChief and I cycled westwards towards the canal. I was at the back, and it was quite instructive watching how the three of us travelled confidently and assertively along. We were moving smartly, but with considerable power in reserve. We dominated the road space when we needed to, and were quite unapologetic about it. My point? We're not the best people to ask about provision for cyclists. We have to think what someone else might want (our children, our partner or our Great Aunt Matilda, for example) rather than what we want. We can joust with the traffic if we need to. I think this was the thesis of the Spokes talk, but today is the first time I've grasped the significance of that for myself. ...of course this doesn't mean that I won't continue to support campaigning for better facilities. gembo on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-146829 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:16:41 +0000 gembo 146829@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The council is slowly extending the pedestrianised section of the high street, next stage down at scandic crowne Threads passim Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=3#post-146828 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:16:38 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146828@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Fimm: this is what I'm saying: London (where there isn't proper infra): <a href="http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article8426951.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/CYCLISTS+ON+LONDON" rel="nofollow">http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article8426951.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/CYCLISTS+ON+LONDON</a>'S+EMBANKMENT.jpg Copenhagen (where there is): <a href="http://www.ecf.com/wp-content/uploads/Copenhagen-Cyclists-Credit-Copenhagen-Cycle-Chic.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.ecf.com/wp-content/uploads/Copenhagen-Cyclists-Credit-Copenhagen-Cycle-Chic.jpg</a> It's the environment that creates the sedate cycling. Stickman on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146827 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:09:02 +0000 Stickman 146827@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " I think there's a real case to made for, in the first instance, pedestrianising (with cycling allowed) the Old Town between the West Port, Princes St, the Bridges and at least Chambers St." Once again, violent agreement from me on this one. I'm the son of a geographer and I have inherited my dad's love and fascination with maps - old, new, whatever. I can spend hours poring over a map, even of an unfamiliar place. If it's somewhere I know then I can get lost in a map all day (often to my wife's exasperation). One of my little pleasures is pondering ideas like this*. It could so easily be done if there was the will or the bravery. *although I realise that there was a thread along these lines which ended very badly recently! Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146826 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:05:44 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146826@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What I've never seem answered is how do the Dutch deal with the dangers posed by cyclists going downhill? Even I do 25mph+ on the road bike and I will brake when I get to about 30. They'd think you were jolly irresponsible. Unfortunately in this country, we don't seem to differentiate between fast cycling and wheeled pedestrians, primarily because we have an environment which excludes wheeled pedestrians completely. No-one cycling in a Dutch or Danish city would cycle that fast on cycle lanes. If you want to cycle that fast in the city you'd go on the road. fimm on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146825 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:01:37 +0000 fimm 146825@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ What I've never seem answered is how do the Dutch deal with the dangers posed by cyclists going downhill? Even I do 25mph+ on the road bike and I will brake when I get to about 30. kaputnik on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146822 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:35:29 +0000 kaputnik 146822@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And part of people's "fear" of hills is that they don't want to be having to pedal slowly up a hill with a lorry or a queue of impatient cars right behind them. A segregated path up a hill is far less daunting prospect. Absolutely! Most people have bikes which allow them to get up most any hill at a slow and comfortable pace, but are obliged to do it with motor traffic up their tails at a minimum of 20mph and most likley trying to weave around potholes, parked vehicles and other obstructions. See also Liberton Brae, where the council have helpfully provided a "cycle lane" that you can sometimes see under the parked cars as you are forced into the door zone by passing motor vehicles as you toil slowly up hill. Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146821 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:20:25 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146821@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ For 'under-confident cyclists' of course I just mean 'folk'. Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146820 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:19:18 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146820@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ PS & Stickman, yes, absolutely. I cycle my road bike fast and going up Cramond Road South (currently the diversion for NCN1) even for me is deeply unpleasant (and I used to be a courier, for goodness sake!). The idea that a family or under-confident cyclists will just get on their bikes if we use words is ridiculous. The evidence from the Professor based on extensive questionnaires and shadowing people's trips is that unless they feel unthreatened by traffic and safe they won't cycle. Stickman on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146819 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:10:13 +0000 Stickman 146819@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Can we please stop going on about the red herring of hilly cities. Sure, it's easier to cycle in flat cities, but the lack of cycling in Edinburgh is by far and away down to the fact that no meaningful on-road infrastructure has been built to encourage cycling in the city's history. Absolutely. And part of people's "fear" of hills is that they don't want to be having to pedal slowly up a hill with a lorry or a queue of impatient cars right behind them. A segregated path up a hill is far less daunting prospect. PS on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146818 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:09:13 +0000 PS 146818@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ the lack of cycling in Edinburgh is by far and away down to the fact that no meaningful on-road infrastructure Agree with you, Graeme. "It's too hilly" is a knee-jerk response on a par with "the weather's too bad". Having to cycle up a hill is a much more fearful thing when combined with heavy traffic. I suspect Leith Street on its own is enough to put a lot of people off the idea of cycling. However, give people segregated infra and a knowledge of gearing and the hills become much less of an issue. And your pedestrianisation idea is pretty much what we'd have if we were in any progressive European city. Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146817 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:55:08 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146817@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I should say, that the other thing that was discussed a lot was actually restricting car usage in the city centre. I asked about this as well. I think there's a real case to made for, in the first instance, pedestrianising (with cycling allowed) the Old Town between the West Port, Princes St, the Bridges and at least Chambers St. Harts Cyclery on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146816 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:49:31 +0000 Harts Cyclery 146816@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Can we please stop going on about the red herring of hilly cities. Sure, it's easier to cycle in flat cities, but the lack of cycling in Edinburgh is by far and away down to the fact that no meaningful on-road infrastructure has been built to encourage cycling in the city's history. Until on-road infrastructure is taken seriously by the Council, and I hope that the message is slowly getting through, then any hope of a cycling boom is forlorn. Needless to say, the good Professor pressed this point home. Speed limits are coming down, but on their own won't prpoerly encourage cycling. PS on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146815 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:49:21 +0000 PS 146815@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Did he have anything particular to say about the 4th picture in the "Changing the Image of Cycling" slide? ;-) He did. With a rueful smile. Something like he was aware that its source advert had caused some controversy, but the picture it presented was an improvement on most people's image of cycling. gembo on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146813 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:38:38 +0000 gembo 146813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yeah, Phoenix park has some rolling hills of a very modest nature and there is a hillside at Howth which is as far north as the DART goes. Maybe also beyond Bray which is as Far south as the DART goes there are the Wicklow Hills, I think maybe Samuel Beckett lived up that way as a boy. The mouth of the Liffey that Dublin has been built on is wide and flat. Zurich may have more hills, I have not been. I have a beer mat from the James Joyce pub in that city. Shuts at 9pm. I am a James Joyce fan and he is buried in the Fluntern Cemetry in Zurich but never seriously been tempted to go. Did go to Galway to the Nora Barnacle museum very nice town. fimm on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146811 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:31:19 +0000 fimm 146811@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Did he have anything particular to say about the 4th picture in the "Changing the Image of Cycling" slide? ;-) Focus on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146801 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:28:00 +0000 Focus 146801@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ gembo I was thinking that too. I haven't been far from the centre too much admittedly, but the only moderately uphill section I can think of was heading towards Croke Park, and that was nothing compared to the hills here. gembo on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146791 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:48:29 +0000 gembo 146791@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @kim Dublin is flat compared to edinburgh chdot on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146790 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:46:55 +0000 chdot 146790@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Do politicians just follow the "we fear change" mantra when assessing policy?" Seems so! "If so, what are they in politics for?" Good question. OK I'm biased, but I think it's pretty clear (from a wide range of research sources) that encouraging walking/cycling is good for people - their health, environment etc. ALSO medium/long term savings on road repairs, NHS etc. etc. So even if such ideas were 'not popular' that's for politicians to lead public opinion on. BUT seems public opinion (at least in Edinburgh) is ahead of them! gembo on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146788 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:42:11 +0000 gembo 146788@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Who.votesin local govt. Elections? Thirty per cent turn out felt to be high. Is it just new town bike hating railings man and EEN journalist shopping by car for school clothes?in my ward the turnouts is high but the voters go straight along party lines. When the congestion charge was mooted in Edinburgh there was great opposition as would have incurred a charge going from Balerno to juniper green. The buses are frequent and free for many of the electorate but at the time the right to drive a car was very strong. It still is. IMO driving a car should be a privilege that incurs costs. This is actually the situation now with fuel, depreciation, VED and parking fees but anything that infringes on this such as better facilities for cyclists is seen as a vote loser by many politicians. Andrew Burns is therefore trying to quietly introduce better facilities without drawing attention to himself.this stops EEN doing piece on him and his crazy hobby. Personally, I think changes are happening if very slowly. The council is also building on previous improvements and not resting on its laurels. We should acknowledge this whilst keeping up the pressure. PS on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146785 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:25:01 +0000 PS 146785@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ On another thread, chdot commented: And/or - as suggested at Monday's Spokes meeting politicians believe what they think people want. As in 'people like the idea of encouraging walking/cycling, 20mph etc. but (too many) politicians think that such things are "vote losers" '. This made me wonder why politicians think it's a vote-loser? City Centre wards have very high proportions of people who walk to work, to the shops, to services. And the harrumphing about the risk of increased traffic or ratrunning in the New Town is pretty standard, so it looks like a no-brainer for councillors to back living streets measures. Maybe some retailers get a bit shirty, but that's a small proportion of the vote (and chances are they don't live in the relevant ward). Perhaps it's more of an issue in the outer wards? But I work in the city centre and very few of my colleagues drive to work - public transport or walking are the top commute methods by far. So anything that improves access to, and movement around, the city centre by those modes (and perhaps even cycling) would surely be seen as a good thing. Do politicians just follow the "we fear change" mantra when assessing policy? If so, what are they in politics for? SRD on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146676 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:09:10 +0000 SRD 146676@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Andrew Burns' blog <a href="http://andrewburns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/understanding-cycling.html" rel="nofollow">http://andrewburns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/understanding-cycling.html</a> For those who think blogs are about shouting opinion, Andrew's in an interesting case study in how to blog without ever expressing an opinion. Unless it be about poetry. He's a clever man. chdot on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146667 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:24:14 +0000 chdot 146667@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2014/03/cycling-past-present-and-possible-futures/">Spokes' report</a>. <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Compressed-Understanding-cycling-Colin-Pooley-Edinburgh-talk.ppt">Prof Pooley's PowerPoint</a>. kaputnik on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146571 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 01:00:12 +0000 kaputnik 146571@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ There's been quite a few mentions in historic threads of the inability of the council to "reach" places on the cycle paths as they couldn't get Transit vans down it. As PS says, a few cargobikes would sort that out (and save them plenty on fleet costs) PS on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146569 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:14:55 +0000 PS 146569@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ As for poor implementation, I suspect it's because very few (perhaps none) of the turkey's who are responsible for putting the "infrastructure" in actually cycle themselves. Getting more of these guys on bikes might lead to them thinking about what they are doing. A virtuous circle. So, CEC, give the workers cargo bikes rather than vans. I had a very brief look at the draft Edinburgh street design guidance that Andrew Burns mentioned a couple of days ago. It looks really promising from a quick flick through. But implementation is key. Kim on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146562 Tue, 25 Mar 2014 23:07:15 +0000 Kim 146562@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Arellcat why do cities like Zurich and Dublin, which as hill if not hillier than Edinburgh, have much higher cycling rates? It is not topography. Nor is it poverty, they good Berger of Zurich don't ride bicycles to get about because they can't afford to drive... chdot on "Mon 24 March: Spokes Spring public meeting" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12328&page=2#post-146547 Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:14:30 +0000 chdot 146547@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And perhaps the most important slide - <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/13408962695/"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7376/13408962695_d5eaef0a83.jpg"></a>