http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Why cyclists should be able to...ride through red lights" en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 05:18:32 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153487 Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:43 +0000 robyvecchio 153487@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The only RLJ I ever see is trough the pedestrian phase mostly out of self preservation. they either get a head start on traffic or ,more importantly, they are able to do an otherwise dangerous right turn.<br /> That's why at red I dismount and go through the red with the pedestrian flow for PR. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153416 Wed, 14 May 2014 06:17:41 +0000 wingpig 153416@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If I encounter traffic lights which are not working (including not detecting me), I proceed with great care (sometimes after re-approaching them a few times at different speeds or in another lane) and Clarence them.</p> <p><a href="https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183">"If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care."</p> <p><a href="https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183" rel="nofollow">https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183</a></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153415 Wed, 14 May 2014 05:13:49 +0000 Charterhall 153415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And what about the many traffic lights that don't recognise cyclists and will never turn green until a motorist pulls up behind you ? Or the lights that are only there because of a pinch point in the road that isnt wide enough for two way motor traffic but is more than wide enough for a bike and a motor vehicle ? Or the lights that are phased to give priority to motor traffic from a different direction but because a red light applies to all they force cyclists to incur the same wait ?<br /> All examples of traffic lights designed for motorists and for the benefit of motorists. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153381 Tue, 13 May 2014 16:25:53 +0000 calmac 153381@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's the hypcrisy that drives me nuts - they speed but it's OK because the road is quiet and straight and wide, they can see any dangers in time and the weather is good, so they're not increasing anyone's risk. Fair enough, I do that myself sometimes. </p> <p>But a RLJing cyclist making exactly the same calculation is a lycra-clad lout. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153379 Tue, 13 May 2014 16:22:40 +0000 paul.mag 153379@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Charlethepar I agree that drivers break the law. I would argue that they believe they are doing it in an acceptable way though. <em>Everybody</em>speeds, <em>Everbody</em>goes through on amber(ish) etc etc. These very same drivers though would object and get ratty about a cyclist "flagrantly" breaking the law by going through a definite red light. It's all about subjectiveness <strong>I break the law in a subtle and acceptable way, he is law breaking b@$tard</strong> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153372 Tue, 13 May 2014 16:09:42 +0000 Charlethepar 153372@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@559 I think you miss my point. All I am saying is that drivers do not object to RLJing cyclists out of respect for the law. Average driver behaviour shows no such respect. They object for some othet reason. I say because we are quicker and better looking. gkgk says its stress. Maybe a bit of both. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153329 Tue, 13 May 2014 13:04:22 +0000 gkgk 153329@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting, this question of why they are angry. Seems more plausible that it's environmental stress than the jealousy hypothesis suggested upthread. Rule-breaking drivers may say it's rulebreaking of cyclists they have a problem with, but it's more likely (imho) that what they dislike is a lack of space and added uncertainties of extra objects wheeling around in their spacial calculations. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153322 Tue, 13 May 2014 12:38:23 +0000 559 153322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@PS Agree totally with your non filtering approach much calmer, and reduces risks. </p> <p>There are principally two different types of Red Lights, firstly a pedestrian crossing, secondly a crossroads type junction. For the record i couldn't be bothered jumping either, why, too much hassle dodging unpredictable pedestrians. </p> <p>Lights are there for traffic, the fact that traffic is mainly motorised, makes no odds, they are there. If we are all to start breaking the laws that don't suit us, where does that end ?<br /> I have seen at close hand a RLJ filtering cyclist almost take out a ped who was crossing when they thought they were safe, i have also seen at close hand a cyclist retreating from a RLJ at a crossroads because they didn't understand the light sequence. </p> <p>I hear people say, but car drivers do this and that and are never caught, yes that is what happens. That is not going to change, we cant have police on every corner. </p> <p>Where possible we should try and educate, reason, and highlight the error of their ways,and as backup always take take their number. If we communicate with drivers in a positve manner the response will reflect that approach. We cannot cycle in our own little cycling bunker. </p> <p>Apologies for the lengthy discourse. Feel better now. :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799&page=2#post-153320 Tue, 13 May 2014 12:36:24 +0000 Snowy 153320@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My fave on Friday evening was the Transport for Edinburgh white van that ignored the no-right-turn sign from South Bridge to the High Street, causing oncoming traffic to brake hard, much blaring of horns etc. Not much of an example from our local incumbent transport organisation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153309 Tue, 13 May 2014 12:12:55 +0000 twq 153309@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Charlethepar<br /> I've ridden through Holyrood Park almost 500 times and have seen two cars observing the speed limit. It's a very odd sight. I've seen more drivers breaking 40 than under 20. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153308 Tue, 13 May 2014 12:10:53 +0000 Charlethepar 153308@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@paul.mag</p> <p>That's odd, beacuse every single day I see drivers getting away with driving significantly over 30mph where it is the speed limit. Every single day, I see drivers getting away with jumping a light that has turned red. Every day I see drivers ignoring no right turn signs, undertaking, not stopping at stop lines, failing to signal before moving off from the kerb using their hazard lights inappropriately, using their horns inapprpropriately, etc, etc, all the time getting away with it.</p> <p>It is the rare enforcement of the law against drivers that is the exception. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153307 Tue, 13 May 2014 12:02:33 +0000 paul.mag 153307@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>No, they're angry because people are deliberately breaking the law right in front of them</em>. </blockquote><br /> and they can't get away with it </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153300 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:46:21 +0000 Charlethepar 153300@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@cc</p> <p>try driving at 19mph through the 20 mph limit zone in Holyrood park, or the 20mph streets around South Edinburgh, and tell me that drivers get angry because they see someone "deliberately breaking the law in front of them". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153294 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:43:39 +0000 Charlethepar 153294@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@cc</p> <p>In fact, most drivers are angry with other drivers who <em>don't</em> break the law. Try driving at 29mph or stopping on Amber. 90% of the time there will be some angry twat getting angry behind you.</p> <p>It is not the fact of breaking the law that winds them up. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153286 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:39:55 +0000 Charlethepar 153286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@cc</p> <p>But as I pointed out, virtually ever driver breaks the law on every trip in town. That is just a fact. Are they equally angry with themselves and each other? No. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153277 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:22:17 +0000 calmac 153277@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But it's not impacting on them in any way, or anyone else, when a cyclist carefully RLJs... so I think their ire is mostly manufactured. Their anger is misplaced. </p> <p>I just don't think it helps any of us if we give the car people ammunition to whine, so I don't do it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153268 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:08:45 +0000 cc 153268@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Drivers are angry because cyclists can travel faster in town than they do, and look healthier and fitter while they do it.</em></p> <p>No, they're angry because people are deliberately breaking the law right in front of them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153265 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:07:24 +0000 LaidBack 153265@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>mgj</strong> <em>I stopped at the toucan near the bowling green as the light was red, even though no one was crossing.</em></p> <p>Have people noticed a higher compliance with actual pedestrian crossings on a road as opposed to ones that are at junctions? I reckon it's because drivers face each other so to run through a pedestrian crossing on red - even when no-one is there - is more 'noticeable' or blatant.</p> <p>Also a pedestrian crossing delays you for a minute amount of time whereas some junctions take 'for ever'. I also accept that the Argyle Place crossing / junction is habitually ignored by traffic in Melville Drive but that is partly due to the poor design. Time they had another go ;-)</p> <p>My observation might be 'wonky' (main word in this thread) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153262 Tue, 13 May 2014 11:05:25 +0000 Charlethepar 153262@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is clearly stupid that cyclists can't turn left through a red light, when safe to do so. In most situations, the ped lights will be on red as cars may be turning into the road. The only reason for the red light is to ration road space between motor vehicles. This can be in situations, such as the end of Chambers Street into the Bridges, where the cyclist can turn left into a bus lane, not even having to join the flow of other trafic. </p> <p>Drivers are angry because cyclists can travel faster in town than they do, and look healthier and fitter while they do it. The pretexts given for the anger, such as RLJing, are just that. Pretty much all motorists drive through lights changing to red. You only have to observe the difference in behaviour where there are red light cameras to appreciate the universality of this law being broken elsewhere. Pretty much all motorists drive significantly over 30mph in town. You only have to try driving at the speed limit to see how rare this is. There is nothing in the least unusal about people breaking laws as they travel around roads.</p> <p>(Disclaimer: Nothing in this post should be taken to infer that I have ever broken any law, ever) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153247 Tue, 13 May 2014 10:35:19 +0000 calmac 153247@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"If anything though, it suggests that those who would stop at reds just to keep wonky-thinking drivers happy (and who would not stop otherwise) ought to consider buying a car tax disc for their bike for the same reason, and find a test of some sort to sit, and get the insurance sorted."</p> <p>Eh? It's illegal to cycle through a red light, is it not? Some people also think it is inconsiderate. </p> <p>But it's not a legal requirement to have a tax disc for a bike, or pass a test, or have insurance, nor does anyone think it is inconsiderate not to do those things.</p> <p>So I think your point is a wee bit wonky. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153245 Tue, 13 May 2014 10:31:14 +0000 gkgk 153245@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@mgj Good link, interesting too, thanks, but I'm not persuaded by the work. If anything though, it suggests that those who would stop at reds just to keep wonky-thinking drivers happy (and who would not stop otherwise) ought to consider buying a car tax disc for their bike for the same reason, and find a test of some sort to sit, and get the insurance sorted. Why should anyone who doesn't agree with stopping at reds single it out as the one thing to conform to? Maybe this isn't about drivers at all, but about cyclist group conformation. Intriguing topic, anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153242 Tue, 13 May 2014 10:21:44 +0000 calmac 153242@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Drivers are just as used to stopping on quiet roads late at night at a red light when they cant see anything around that could have priority. If bikes can choose to ignore a red, why not a driver?"</p> <p>I have to confess that, if I'm driving and I'm stopped at a red light in the middle of the night, I'm not near any houses or anything and I can be completely sure there are no other cars around and that it would definitely be safe to drive through the red, I go through. </p> <p>In parts of the US you can make a right turn through a red if there's nothing coming - you treat it as a Stop sign, and in France they have flashing reds that do the same. </p> <p>We seem to be very petty about rules in Britain. In Linlithgow I can cycle along the canal, which is pretty narrow in places, and round the loch, and on any paths that aren't near roads. But cycle at walking speed with one foot off the pedals on a very wide pavement with no pedestrians near you, and people will take the struntz. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153207 Mon, 12 May 2014 23:22:44 +0000 KeepPedalling 153207@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I recall reading that TFL research found 12 times as many cyclists are killed who waited at red, compared to those killed who went through red.<br /> <a href="http://www.standard.co.uk/news/male-cyclists-who-jump-red-lights-are-safer-7181197.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.standard.co.uk/news/male-cyclists-who-jump-red-lights-are-safer-7181197.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153205 Mon, 12 May 2014 22:50:08 +0000 mgj 153205@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gkgk - it's real alright. There was Scottish Government research a few years ago into it, talking to real drivers, taxi and bus ones too. See <a href="http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2001/05/9069/File-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2001/05/9069/File-1</a></p> <p>@Pintail - but that applies to all road users. Drivers are just as used to stopping on quiet roads late at night at a red light when they cant see anything around that could have priority. If bikes can choose to ignore a red, why not a driver? And the answer is to do with predictability and observation, I'd have thought. People are used to wheeled road users stopping at a red, so they act as if they will stop.(which is why examples from other cultures are not that relevant). So for example today, driving through the meadows taking my two girls to the dentist, I stopped at the toucan near the bowling green as the light was red, even though no one was crossing. while I was stopped, a pedestrian ran across from behind my right shoulder (I was first in queue). He presumably trusted me to stay still while the light was red even though it was pretty unlikely that I'd have seen him. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153178 Mon, 12 May 2014 18:47:46 +0000 Charterhall 153178@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm with calmac -</p> <p> "why am I stopped here when there's no reason for it?" </p> <p>Not all but many traffic lights are only there because of and for the benefit of those in motor vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153165 Mon, 12 May 2014 17:02:13 +0000 calmac 153165@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's not speed for me, it's just impatience really. And I'm not exactly fit so keeping a nice, smooth rhythm is a high priority. </p> <p>It's more to do with "why am I stopped here when there's no reason for it?" kind of thinking. But there really does have to be no reason - and being nice out there is a reason for stopping at reds while things are as they are. </p> <p>I'm not a glass half-full guy, I'm not a glass half-empty guy. I'm a "where's the rest of my bl**dy drink" kind of guy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153163 Mon, 12 May 2014 16:57:03 +0000 gkgk 153163@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nice article. That Idaho Law sounds brilliant.</p> <p>I don't run reds normally because I am scared of run-ins with the law. The perception/group punishment thing seems weird to me, not sure it's even real, other than among a small minority of angry shouties parroting their newscomics, an unwinnable situation for sure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153151 Mon, 12 May 2014 16:14:17 +0000 amir 153151@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Like PS, I am now more conservative on the filtering, especially if I am near the front anyway. It's good to relax. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153143 Mon, 12 May 2014 15:33:04 +0000 PS 153143@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't run red lights, partly because of perception and partly because I'm one of those people that tends to follow the rules, seeing that's how society works.</p> <p>Just recently, I've also taken to not bothering to filter to the front of a queue at traffic lights if I'm a few cars back from the lights. Instead I would sit in primary position in the queue. It was enlightening how much more relaxed my journey became as I was able to look around at the architecture on the Bridges, for instance, or look at the sky for a bit. I think it cost me all of 20 seconds in journey time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12799#post-153141 Mon, 12 May 2014 15:19:50 +0000 steveo 153141@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'd be lost with out the lights at Gillespie Crossroads. </p>