CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: UKIP => yes to independence?

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: UKIP => yes to independence? http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: UKIP => yes to independence? en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 05:18:26 +0000 kaputnik on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-156174 Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:43:24 +0000 kaputnik 156174@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Lib Dem sources said that <strike>some</strike> all of their natural supporters voted tactically for the Tories to keep out Ukip FTFY. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-156167 Fri, 06 Jun 2014 11:46:47 +0000 calmac 156167@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ In a constituency in which Labour ought to have been a realistic contender, and that they held 1997-2001, I'm not sure I buy that argument from Labour. The loss of votes from the Lib Dems is pretty shocking. I think about 27,000 voted Tory or UKIP. Fewer than 7,000 voted Labour. Hmm. chdot on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-156134 Fri, 06 Jun 2014 07:07:50 +0000 chdot 156134@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Labour and Lib Dem sources said that some of their natural supporters voted tactically for the Tories to keep out Ukip. " <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/06/newark-byelection-result-conservatives-win-comfortably-with-ukip-second-and-labour-third" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/06/newark-byelection-result-conservatives-win-comfortably-with-ukip-second-and-labour-third</a> I were right about that saddle on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155607 Mon, 02 Jun 2014 12:18:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 155607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @calmac Don't be too down. British (sic) culture is incredibly tolerant compared to the way it was even in my youth and compared to many other places. I had a friend translate abuse being directed at the Moroccan football team by another Moroccan. The language would have made the National Front blush, even though abuser and abused both looked 'black' to me. I've had a professor from a reputable East European university politley but firmly insist in a social setting that Gypsies are genetically pre-disposed to crime and require special control measures. I have worked with Chinese people who think of black people as not fully human. One of my own grandmothers was horrified by the appearance of African students on the Aberdeen buses in the early seventies. I think it is to our great credit that we've started talking about these things, and also that the referendum debate has so far avoided developing any ethnic strand. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155597 Mon, 02 Jun 2014 11:55:24 +0000 calmac 155597@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Hmm. Yes, bit of a train wreck there. I meant "after a No vote". Can't explain how I bottommed that one so badly. Anyway, while I'm here, something of use - YouGov asked questions about racism in their poll for the Sunday Times last week. 27% of people described themselves as a little or very prejudiced against people of other races, and 17% said they had some views that are racist. This was self-declared! 37% said they would be uncomfortable if a family of Romanians moved in next door. 8% said the same about a family of Germans, 33% for Pakistanis, 36% for Nigerians. 34% think the Uk is more racist than 10 years ago, 30% think it's the same, and 28% say less racist. People in Scotland had pretty much the same views as the rest of the UK - only London was notably better than the average. And unsurprisingly Ukippers were much more likley to describe themselves as prejudiced or holding racist views. They were twice as likely to be uncomfortable with a foreign family living next door. Depressing stuff, really. <a href="http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8fglspvdzl/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140530.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8fglspvdzl/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140530.pdf</a> Instography on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155565 Mon, 02 Jun 2014 00:17:04 +0000 Instography 155565@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I used to think there would be more powers after independence, but now I don't." (Shome mishtake, shurely? Ed) crowriver on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155541 Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:44:30 +0000 crowriver 155541@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Well, UKIP seem to have successfully set the agenda for this bunch of Westminster politicians: "Labour MPs urge leadership to curb free movement within EU" <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/01/labour-mps-urge-curb-eu-free-movement-open-letter-ed-miliband" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/01/labour-mps-urge-curb-eu-free-movement-open-letter-ed-miliband</a> wee folding bike on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155434 Fri, 30 May 2014 17:52:13 +0000 wee folding bike 155434@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We already control the schools and NHS, always have. Nob Orders can promise more powers because of the Scotland act 2012 but it's not really more powers, it's more responsibilities. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=7#post-155431 Fri, 30 May 2014 17:16:26 +0000 calmac 155431@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I used to think there would be more powers after independence, but now I don't. No-one has said anything about what kind of powers they'd transfer. If they're not talking serious taxation (basically all of it but we pay a certain amount back for armed forces etc), welfare, energy, industry, competition and employment, then they're obviously not remotely serious. And if they'd really wanted a third option, they'd have put it on the ballot paper. Vote No Borders had adverts in the papers this week "guaranteeing" us more powers over schools and the NHS. Yeah. Make of that what you will. I were right about that saddle on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155430 Fri, 30 May 2014 17:02:49 +0000 I were right about that saddle 155430@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @kaputnik Nicely put. And let's not forget that in iScotland, the capital city, the biggest city and the richest city need not all be one and the same. The Fat Nazi/Dear Leader has already engaged to put the Energy Ministry in the Silver City. Thus ensuring that no-one can afford to move there to take up a job, but hey-ho. PS on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155429 Fri, 30 May 2014 16:59:56 +0000 PS 155429@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It's not so much the distribution of seats, but the influence of other power groups (eg, "The City") that influences government. Inevitably, Edinburgh opinion will influence Holyrood. As will other blocks of opinion, "The Church", "The Oil", "The Puffed Up Wee Men In Their Bowler Hats"... kaputnik on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155428 Fri, 30 May 2014 16:53:10 +0000 kaputnik 155428@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But soon we can vote to become the independent republic of Edinburgh, Big Business & the South East The political power of "Edinburgh" in the Scottish Parliament isn't great. It returns 8.1% of MSPs (I pro-rated the list MSPs based on relative electorate of Edinburgh in the Lothian electoral region) and has 8.7% of the electorate. It's also not the home (spiritual or otherwise) of either of the 2 main political parties/power blocs in the parliament. As a modern democratic arrangement with both proportional representation, I'd take the Holyrood system over the Westminster system any day. I'd like to believe that the distribution of seats, boudnaries and constituencies isn't so open to political tinkering as the press would suggest it is in England. I'd be all for more regional devolution of powers in the future. Western Isles, Orkney and Shetlands are already calling for this and why not. I don't want to see one model of unaccountable centralisation in a distant capital replaced by another. I were right about that saddle on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155424 Fri, 30 May 2014 16:35:43 +0000 I were right about that saddle 155424@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But business, big and small, will leave Scotland on the 19th of September! acsimpson on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155423 Fri, 30 May 2014 16:22:47 +0000 acsimpson 155423@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ But soon we can vote to become the independent republic of Edinburgh, Big Business & the South East crowriver on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155420 Fri, 30 May 2014 16:08:47 +0000 crowriver 155420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ slides towards being the United Kingdom of London, Big Business & the South East. kappers, it's been that way since at least the 1980s. kaputnik on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155411 Fri, 30 May 2014 14:34:39 +0000 kaputnik 155411@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm of the opinion that a post-Yes future is actually more, not less, clear than a post-No future. Despite some noises to the contrary, there's no plan being offered for a post-No world beyond "we'll have some negotiations" - which sounds a lot like Danny Alexander and that guy from the Scotchland Office (his name escapes me) want to come and decree their terms. Yes, one might blame the SNP for marching us up to the top of the hill then pushing on over the other side so that everyone has to follow, however even if you're Better Together I don't think anyone can deny that constitutionally the UK is rather bust or that it's a fair or represntative democracy in upper or lower houses. Someone had to do it and it's probably the push that the UK needs to reform itself or risk falling further apart as it slides towards being the United Kingdom of London, Big Business & the South East. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155404 Fri, 30 May 2014 14:14:15 +0000 calmac 155404@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So much of a post-Yes future is hard to predict, and how Labour would respond is a fundamental question. I had always thought that independence would allow Labour to cut free from the chains from London that pull them right of where they naturally ought to be. I also thought that the SNP would crumble away in chunks and pieces without the purpose that holds them together. But Labour have still not recovered from or learned any lessons from their defeat in 2007. The people in charge of the party are badly lacking the intellect and vision required by their jobs. I can speculate on the reasons, but Lamont, Baillie, Iain Grey, all the rest of them, they are badly out of their depth. They are, at best, decent local MSPs. They are poisoned by an irrational hatred of the SNP and they cannot get out of that position. If Labour were to take too long to get their act together then the SNP could just replace them as main the party of the left. This happened in rural north-east Scotland in the 70s-80s, it's been happening in the Highlands and eastern cities since the 90s, and now it's creeping in around Ayrshire, Falkirk, Stirling and the Lothians. If Labour don't do something to re-establish themselves on that turf then the SNP could keep it. Maybe Labour live on as a smaller, leftier party based mostly in west-central Scotland and we get SNP-Labour coalition government. It's very hard to make predications this side of the vote, but Labour are in an awful position, their grassroots have withered away to nothing in many areas, they rely on money from London and hundreds of thousands have lost the habit of voting for them. Independence offers them a huge opportunity but I question whether they'd have the ability to take it. chdot on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155397 Fri, 30 May 2014 13:57:54 +0000 chdot 155397@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "my great hope for independence is that it will give me back a Labour Party that I can feel at home around again" I suspect there are a lot of people who think like that. Some will have voted for UKIP recently, others have not voted for anyone for some years. Some are voting for other parties and might return (post Yes) to a revived/revised LP. Whether there is a Yes or No there will be some realignment of parties/politics. If No it will partly depend on how close the Referendum is and also what happens at next year's GE. If Yes, not a lot will happen (in a parties sense) for a while. The SNP will do its best to subdue the 'triumphalism' as there will be a lot of serious negotiating to be done. The LD's may be further in decline. The Tories might be 'disappointed', but could well seize the opportunity to become 'the' centre-right party in Scotland - their elected 'strength' is already well established at Holyrood. Labour will probably descend into serious 'recrimination mode' with slanging matches (not just in private) between Holyrood and Westminster 'factions' - and manoeuvrings (by some) to try to get seats in Holyrood. Politically there is a great deal of overlap between the people and policies of the SNP and Labour - apart from 'the Union'. As that will have been 'settled', there will be a lot of soul searching about the 'purpose' of a Labour Party in Scotland. There will be something similar in the SNP, but that will be delayed until 'separation negotiations' are completed. The SNP contains people with a wider 'left-right' spectrum than Labour. It seems unlikely (but not impossible) that they will all stay together. Some may drift off from 'ends', but it's also possible that there could be unexpected alliances between some SNP and Labour people to create a new centre-left party. It's possible (but unlikely) that the ScotTories and the new NotTheLabourParty would be dominant in the next 5-10 years. Perhaps the SNP will just remain as the 'social democratic party of Scotland' still attracting the most votes and retain it's own internal coalition. The Greens could gain in strength (they would have been on the 'winning side' and have noticeably different policies). Perhaps more parties will emerge that aren't just realignments of the current players. Maybe the trade unions will want their own party - not just letting Labour continue to 'hold its nose and take the money', perhaps some 'faith based' parties would attract voters. Perhaps non-voters will begin to vote. The future is not really mapped out. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155390 Fri, 30 May 2014 13:34:00 +0000 calmac 155390@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I was fine with Kinnock, I'm fairly pragmatic and want to get things done, which is probably why I've comfortable in the SNP (also, the activists in my neck of the woods are mostly lovely, hard-working, smart people). But Tony Blair... And let's not forget, since October 1974 he's the only Labour leader that the UK has elected. My grandfather told my mum, who told me, about turning up outside the shipyard each day and hoping not to be turned away. If you did anything to annoy the bosses - like ask for more pay, or sick pay, or safety equipment, or even got caught talking to your colleagues about these things you didn't work and your children went hungry. The only way that changed was by everyone standing together and saying "these are the terms and if you don't like it you can build your own bloody ships". If there were enough splitters, the bosses won and everyone lost. The only thing they had was each other, and they formed the Labour Party to make laws to help and protect them. Late at night, when it's quiet, if you listen very carefully you can sometimes hear a sort of background hum. That's all the people like my grandfather spinning in their graves at what's happened to the party they built. crowriver on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155387 Fri, 30 May 2014 13:28:22 +0000 crowriver 155387@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I stopped voting Labour after Blair became leader. The dropping of Clause 4 was the final nail in the coffin for any pretensions Labour had of being a party of the left. Instead they became the SDP. Voted SNP for a while but started to become concerned about many of their populist policies. Started voting Green in 1999, and joined the Scottish Green Party in 2010 after the Tories were aided into government by the Lib Dems. I have never regretted the decision. I were right about that saddle on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155386 Fri, 30 May 2014 13:21:51 +0000 I were right about that saddle 155386@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ Calmac, I went through something similar to you, but for me it happened 1994 to 1997 February 2003 for me. Marching with half a million Scots through Glasgow to try to stop the British state engaging in a stupid and unnecessary attack on a country quite unable to fight back. Now it's a question of defending the 1945 settlement that my grandparents' generation won with their blood and sweat and which the British state is too pucilanimous to defend in the face of the rich. Great Britain - strong enough to attack the weak, too weak to defend its own. The Labour party has become a creature that my grandmother, who fought blackshirts on the streets of Aberdeen with her fists, would not recognise. dg145 on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155383 Fri, 30 May 2014 12:59:21 +0000 dg145 155383@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @ Calmac, I went through something similar to you, but for me it happened 1994 to 1997 Oh yeah, of course. My discomfort with the Labour Party goes back way beyond there. I let my membership of the Party go in the late 80's when I felt Kinnock was 'modernising' the Party beyond where I felt comfortable. Don't even get me started on Blair! I've kept drifting back as a voter, though, and my great hope for independence is that it will give me back a Labour Party that I can feel at home around again. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155377 Fri, 30 May 2014 12:35:08 +0000 calmac 155377@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ dg145, I went through something similar to you, but for me it happened 1994 to 1997. It began with Tony Blair becoming leader of the Labour Party (I was a member at that point) and ended with Jim Murphy effectively telling me I was a scrounger who was stealing money from pensioners because I thought student loans and tuition fees weren't a good idea. It was clear to me that if Tony Blair was as far left as the UK electorate was prepared to go, then it was time to elect our own governments. I look back at everytyhing that's happened since 1979, look at how different it could have been for post-industrial Scotland, and frankly it makes me want to cry. I don't see any reason to think things will be any better in the UK in the coming decades, and I feel deeply sorry for the English working class, but we're no help to them inside the UK and maybe we could model a different path outside it. calmac on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155375 Fri, 30 May 2014 12:28:15 +0000 calmac 155375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Am I too late to go back to the CAP bit of this? There are three directions this can go, and we need to find a compromise somewhere. You can have very little food produced in Europe and most of it imported from lower-wage countries. You can have tariffs and barriers to prevent Europe being flooded with cheaper food so that we have our own food production, but then food would be hugely more expensive. Or you can have food produced in Europe that can compete with food imported from outside Europe by subsidising it. There's a sort-of triangle with those ideas at the three points, and the policy positions are somewhere in between. Cutting subsidy without putting up trade barriers would devastate rural economies across Europe (with the worst impacts in places like Greece, southern Italy, Spain and Portugal) and see a massive amount of land go wild (which may not be a bad thing). Cutting subsidy while putting up trade barriers/ tariffs would hugely increase the cost of food and force tens of millions into food poverty. Those already in food poverty would be up sh*t creek. Of course, governments would have the savings from CAP with which to alleviate the situation, but at £3Bn for the UK it wouldn't be enough. It could also be argued that it would be deeply regressive. There's nothing about the CAP debate that's easy, and anyone who suggests there is is either a dogmatist or doesn't understand the complexity and the impacts that major reforms could have. My summary is extremely simplistic and skips all sorts of things - worst for me is that much of the benefit of the subsidy goes to supermarkets, not consumers or farmers. As the Irish would say, you wouldn't want to start from here, but now that we're here it's very difficult to find a sensible way out. I were right about that saddle on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155325 Fri, 30 May 2014 10:03:44 +0000 I were right about that saddle 155325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @gembo As you're politically active you'll doubtless know that Yes Scotland goes way beyond the SNP, so the whole 'King Salmond' meme doesn't help your case any. For what it's worth, no one mentions the current First Minister in either a positive or negative light on the doorsteps. Maybe it would be more productive to talk up the leader of whatever political party you belong to. Out of interest, and if it isn't intrusive, who is that? I want to see a Scottish republic with its own currency. Voting Yes is an attempt to get to the point where I can participate in arguments like those about the nature of the country we live in. I don't expect paradise and I don't expect riches. Liberty, equality and solidarity would do it. crowriver on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155324 Fri, 30 May 2014 10:02:37 +0000 crowriver 155324@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm not expecting it to be easy but I do believe it will be better than the alternative. This. Independence is a process, not a destination. I am hopeful that the huge debate people are having right across Scotland will inspire folk to start taking back some power for themselves, to demand more accountability, further devolution of powers to local level, an active democracy worthy of the name. It's not going to be easy, but it's sure as hell better than wallowing in cynicism and giving up hope that things will ever change. We have the chance to change something important here. We ought to take it. cc on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155322 Fri, 30 May 2014 09:56:25 +0000 cc 155322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @steveo, and anyone else in a pessimistic mood - you need a dose of something cheery and positive like Lesley Riddoch's book <a href="http://www.lesleyriddoch.com/blossom-the-book.html">Blossom</a>. Borrow my copy if you like. I'm recommending it because it shows how people have managed to escape the situation you describe so feelingly. When people run things for themselves, they can make a far better job of it than some remote government could ever do. She gives examples. I could go on, because it's inspiring, but I'll stop myself. Take a look at the book instead. You can get a flavour of it from this talk she gave: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUmhqLS5NVY" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUmhqLS5NVY</a> dg145 on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155316 Fri, 30 May 2014 09:33:04 +0000 dg145 155316@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've made the journey from 'No' to 'Yes' gradually over the past year or so. My base camp was as an instinctive, yet increasingly reluctant, Labour voter. One of the hurdles I've had to get over in that journey was a mistrust of the SNP in general and a personal dislike of Alex Salmond in particular. However, as Angus points out, the Indy vote isn't about Salmond or the SNP, it's about what sort of society we aspire to live in. I think we have seen enough evidence from the post-Devolution Scottish Government's (of all shades) that, within that political settlement, we do things a little differently in Scotland. There is a much stronger, and I think innate, focus on social justice and welfare than we see in the Government of the UK as a whole (of all shades). My arrival at 'Yes' has actually been as much to do with my despair at where the UK political establishment is taking us as it has with being certain of Scotland's bright new, independent future. The growth of UKIP and the inevitable pandering to the centre-right of the other mainstream parties that will follow this just confirms my views. I believe that an independent Scotland will break us from that fate and give us an opportunity to vote in the Government that we want, and need. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what an Independent Scottish Labour Party might look like. I'm not expecting it to be easy but I do believe it will be better than the alternative. steveo on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155309 Fri, 30 May 2014 09:04:23 +0000 steveo 155309@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Who really, actually believes that solutions to climate change, social inequality, poor health, or even just the UK’s piss-poor cycling policy, are anything more than a pipe dream in our current political system? And who honestly believes we'll get anything different? The people voting are the same, the people courting those votes are the same. A democracy gets the government it deserves and frankly the only reason we don't get more Torries up here is thanks to Maggie. Once the Scottish Conservatives lose the London stench they'll start to attract more voters and the same policies that we get from Westminster will start to emerge here. Little will really change, then we'll get absorbed by a federal Europe and be stuck in the same administrative district as EnglandandWales and Ireland; a few billion pounds deeper in debt and still taking orders from Brusels and London. /Pessimistic mood... wee folding bike on "UKIP => yes to independence?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=12863&page=6#post-155302 Fri, 30 May 2014 07:20:33 +0000 wee folding bike 155302@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Sure. He doesn't want to be king and it's as much our bank as Westminster's. If they claim the bank because of the name then we'll take New Scotland Yard. They can keep the Duke of Edinburgh though. Westminster ruled it out. The FM left the option open for a year. Yes. I never got the smug thing but I don't vote for people based on whether I like them or not anyway and what changes would be up to us. It looks like decades of austerity under Westminster and less egalitarian so…