http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: London cyclists collide with 25% of guide dogs en Mon, 18 May 2026 17:28:18 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163532 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 15:20:15 +0000 SRD 163532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://road.cc/content/blog/128474-anatomy-lie-how-guide-dogs-london-fabricated-attack-cyclists" rel="nofollow">http://road.cc/content/blog/128474-anatomy-lie-how-guide-dogs-london-fabricated-attack-cyclists</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163515 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:25:35 +0000 wingpig 163515@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"do you ever feel pedestrians and cyclists get in each others' ways?"</em></blockquote></p> <p>I'd have tried to phrase that somewhat differently, to make it fairer on the slower - the faster the vehicle, the farther before it 'its way' will extend for the same time period, which is why anything on a road which isn't a brrrrmingly fast motor car is generally considered automatically in the way thereof. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163514 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:17:01 +0000 acsimpson 163514@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Going at a slight tangent I stopped to answer a transport Scotland survey currently being conducted on the Forth Road Bridge. One of the questions was along the lines of "do you ever feel pedestrians and cyclists get in each others ways", the questioner mentioned that several pedestrians but no cyclists said yes. I'm sure in the same way we think some car drivers are far to close when the drivers don't, pedestrians have a different view of us. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163511 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:04:37 +0000 chdot 163511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"OED - †b. Of behaviour: Courteous, polite, obliging"</p> <p>I think there is no doubt that people on CCE are obliging. That seems to have come as a (pleasant) surprise to some. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163510 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:59:56 +0000 chdot 163510@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So apologies for the insult"</p> <p>I knew one wasn't being sent so no need for apology!</p> <p>"I blame my Northern Irish roots where language owes more to the King James Bible than the internet!"</p> <p>Perhaps - though I imagine the internet age 'started' in NI at much the same time as elsewhere. </p> <p>The thing about language is that it evolves (some people seem to think it shouldn't), but it's always good to know/explore 'roots'. </p> <p>Just because someone has put some info in a dictionary (paper or otherwise) doesn't mean that it is gospel (to coin a phrase). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163508 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:52:46 +0000 Roibeard 163508@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>OED - <em>†b. Of behaviour: Courteous, polite, obliging.</em></p> <p>However the † denotes an obsolete meaning, the current being <em>Appropriate to persons of quality. Now chiefly with sarcastic implication.</em></p> <p>So apologies for the insult, I blame my Northern Irish roots where language owes more to the King James Bible than the internet!</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163507 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:51:47 +0000 Instography 163507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've taken to nodding pedestrians across the George Street crossings because even when they're half-way across they stop, assuming that I won't. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163505 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:38:19 +0000 chdot 163505@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>characterized by exaggerated or affected politeness, refinement, or respectability.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=genteel" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=genteel</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163504 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:36:09 +0000 chdot 163504@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"clearly the genteel atmosphere of CCE"</p> <p>It's one thing to be described as 'that middle class forum', but <em>genteel</em>?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163503 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:30:17 +0000 Roibeard 163503@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm trying to get this idea through to the kids too - they tend to whizz along rather than giving pedestrians a wide berth, or being obviously about to stop. Giving way to pedestrians crossing side streets is something they still need to work on.</p> <p>But never mind the kids, I'm sure I've mellowed as a driver and cyclist over the last five years too - clearly the genteel atmosphere of CCE...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163501 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:56:24 +0000 chdot 163501@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I'm sure there are many times when we're sure we are fine, and the people we're cycling around are freaked out."</p> <p>That's why 'we' need chicanes - to slow us down <em>and</em> bring everyone closer together... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163500 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:48:09 +0000 SRD 163500@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Maybe what feels like a normal pass on a bike can be felt like a near miss for a blind person."</p> <p>I am absolutely sure you are right about this. And, as cyclists, we are probably the worst people to judge what is 'too close' or not. </p> <p>I'm sure there are many times when we're sure we are fine, and the people we're cycling around are freaked out. </p> <p>This morning, I was approaching the Kings junction. My light had gone red, the pedestrian signal was on, but I could see this couple looking at me, and hesitating before crossing. A middleaged man and younger woman - no mobility issues. As they reached the kerb, they turned and looked at me again. Why? because I hadn't slowed down. i was rushing to get to the crossing, hop off and cross with the pedestrians, so braked right at the last minute. But I know they thought I was going to barge straight through on the bike. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163496 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:30:47 +0000 robyvecchio 163496@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My two pence about the issue is that I think they are right, even with the small statistical sample we are talking about.</p> <p>When I had eye surgery, I had to be walked home from Glasgow by my brother and my girlfriend and I definitely remember that the traffic, all traffic, felt much, much closer. We were on a wide pavement but it felt like I was in the middle of the lane.</p> <p>Maybe what feels like a normal pass on a bike can be felt like a near miss for a blind person. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163495 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:30:40 +0000 SRD 163495@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>really depressing. It is a serious issue - but this just trivializes it, and loses allies. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163493 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:26:49 +0000 acsimpson 163493@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not just bad statistics but bad maths too. The only way I can get close to 25% is to take the percentage of dog users who have experienced a collision and the total number of responses including non dog users. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163477 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 08:53:23 +0000 Roibeard 163477@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Guide Dogs have done a proper "Nicewaycode" job of taking what is a relatively minor (but concerning) issue and really made a <strike>farcical meal</strike> <em>dog's dinner</em> of it.</p> <p>FTFY...</p> <p>Robert<br /> (who often doesn't get subtlety!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163475 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 08:19:09 +0000 kaputnik 163475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://twitter.com/GuidedogsLondon/status/482112258756337664" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/GuidedogsLondon/status/482112258756337664</a></p> <p>Seems that Instography was right about the self-selecting nature of this survey. Guide Dogs have done a proper "Nicewaycode" job of taking what is a relatively minor (but concerning) issue and really made a farcical meal of it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163442 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 20:40:31 +0000 dougal 163442@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyhinch, a fascinating fact! Given most people are right-handed I suspect most guide-dogs would sit at the right hand of their owners before crossing a road. This puts them in the collision path for any cyclist at the left edge of the road if they step out. I suspect we've not got nearly enough data to tell if people with rusty chains loud freewheels are involved in fewer collisions... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163439 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 18:42:38 +0000 Instography 163439@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The story seems to have been updated to reflect a correction from the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association. It now reads:</p> <p>"In a survey conducted by the association, of 33 guide dog owners in London who responded, 14 said they had been involved in a collision and 25 said they had been involved in a "near miss" with cyclists on pavements or jumping red lights.</p> <p>A further five blind people without guide dogs said they had been in collisions with cyclists - out of 16 who responded to the survey."</p> <p>So, it looks like they got a 10% response rate to their survey and it would be reasonable to think that (a) online self-completion surveys aren't the best way to canvass the opinions of blind and partially-sighted people and (b) it would be reasonable to think that people concerned about bicycles or with negative interactions with cyclists would be more strongly motivated to participate, overstating the true prevalence of problems. None of that detracts from the reasonable points they make but it does make the original story look a bit hysterical. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163438 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 18:18:40 +0000 sallyhinch 163438@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Another reason for decent cycle infrastructure in my opinion - at least the bikes will be mostly in the cycle tracks and thus easier to predict. Whereas shared use pavements must be an absolute nightmare for the visually impaired. </p> <p>I hadn't realised this until talking to a blind person with a guide dog, but they make the decision to cross the road based on what they're hearing, not that the dog somehow signals that the road is clear (which is sort of what I'd assumed but thinking about it is quite a complex concept for a dog). So bikes really are a significant problem - as are electric cars. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163420 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:11:55 +0000 Stickman 163420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>To be fair, most of them will be wearing a hi-vis jacket or lead. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163419 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:03:23 +0000 I were right about that saddle 163419@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How many of these so-called 'guide dogs' were wearing helmets? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163417 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:25:29 +0000 Stickman 163417@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not really if there are less than 5000 guide dog owners in the UK:</p> <p><a href="http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/services#.U_3N3Im9Kc0">Guide Dogs For The Blind</a></p> <p>And having seen the training the dogs go through I can understand why there aren't that many in the UK </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163416 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:21:01 +0000 acsimpson 163416@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Does anyone else find 320 guide dog users in London to be surprisingly low? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163412 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:50:57 +0000 kaputnik 163412@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I agree that every cyclsits has a duty of care around those less able/more vulnerable, and a big and heavy book should be thrown at anyone found to be negligent riding on a pavement or through a red light who strikes any pedestrian, not just a guide dog / blind person. Although the difficulty of a dog in hearing an approaching bike over traffic noise and for a blind person to take avoiding action places even more onus on cyclists to be the responsible ones.</p> <p>But... That headline is rather inflamatory and the article is a bit vague. In a survey of 20% of guide dog users (320) in London, 25% (16) reported a collision. Over what period is this? Are we talking 16 a year, or 16 <em>ever</em>. How many were hit by cars? How many were bumped into by other pedestrians. How many of those "pavements" were shared use or not?</p> <p>It reads rather like a lazy bit like churnalism of the original press release, without any journalistic attempt to provide some context to the article. After all, painting "London cyclists" as one co-ordinated group of heartless runners-over of puppies is sure to get plenty of clicks and a good old "they don't pay road tax" debate going.</p> <p>The link to the Guide Dogs website doesn't provide any further detail and the Evening Stannar' article is even less helpful. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163405 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:23:23 +0000 chdot 163405@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> A survey involving a fifth of guide dog owners in the city also found 70% had experienced a near miss with cyclists on pavements or jumping red lights.</p> <p>"</p> <p>Not good. </p> <p>By definition the dogs will be 'under control' so cyclists have 'failed' to notice/take care with dog <em>and</em> pedestrian. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13354#post-163402 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:16:51 +0000 Baldcyclist 163402@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28945834" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28945834</a> </p>