http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: OT: blocking out the European Court of Human Rights en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 03:44:28 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504&page=2#post-167013 Sat, 04 Oct 2014 00:20:27 +0000 Instography 167013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is the same Kenny Macaskill who, with his boss, wanted to stop a 'foreign' court deciding on human rights cases in Scotland? Mind you, the foreign court in that instance was the Scottish judges in the UK's Supreme Court.</p> <p>I'm not saying he's wrong in this case. Just an idiot in general. I suppose like a stopped clock he can be right a couple of times. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-167010 Sat, 04 Oct 2014 00:06:52 +0000 chdot 167010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>SCOTLAND risks being “sidelined and marginalised” like Belarus under Conservative plans to repeal human rights legislation, it has been claimed.</p> <p>Addressing the Law Society of Scotland’s annual conference in Edinburgh this morning, justice secretary Kenny MacAskill said he was “deeply concerned” by Tory proposals which could see European judges stripped of their powers to enforce human rights in the UK.</p> <p>Mr MacAskill’s comments echoed those of Dominic Grieve QC, the former attorney general, who said the proposals contained a series of factual “howlers” and were not properly thought through.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/macaskill-deeply-concerned-by-human-rights-plans-1-3561900" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/macaskill-deeply-concerned-by-human-rights-plans-1-3561900</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-167009 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 23:04:56 +0000 Ed1 167009@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>After a few beers, not sure if i can say anything sensible. But yes to a certain extent the government has ignored the ECHR and HRA when does not suit their interests. </p> <p>Imagine if the council did not agree with the Scottish government law, so they ignored it, not quite the same but some similar principles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-167007 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 22:53:35 +0000 Instography 167007@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A twitter joke makes the point, which I'd previously missed that the fact that prisoners don't have the vote demonstrates that in spite of the ECHR and HRA, parliament retains its sovereignty. </p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/518130857731964928" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/518130857731964928</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-167004 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 22:37:17 +0000 Darkerside 167004@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks all! I now feel slightly more educated.</p> <p>I've tried to summarise the discussion above and the various links here, should anyone else feel similarly confused:</p> <p><a href="http://www.darkerside.org/2014/10/european-court-of-human-rights/" rel="nofollow">http://www.darkerside.org/2014/10/european-court-of-human-rights/</a></p> <p>(Attribution for you all is at the end!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-167000 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 17:43:20 +0000 LaidBack 167000@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>insto <em>"Do you really expect a coherent policy from a right wing Tory about a document that has the both "European" and "Human Rights" in its title?"</em></p> <p>Good analysis!</p> <p>Seriously find this quite worrying in relation to the fact that the UK state already has powerful anti-terrorist laws. (And can define the term as it sees fit). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166990 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 16:43:18 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166990@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Looks like the Blue Conservatives have even offended their house journal with this latest stunt;</p> <p><a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100288708/conservatives-should-think-very-carefully-before-ditching-the-echr/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100288708/conservatives-should-think-very-carefully-before-ditching-the-echr/</a></p> <p>I love this quote;</p> <p><em>Ultimately the British are respected around the world for the authority of our great institutions: parliament, the free press, an independent civil service, the monarchy, an independent judiciary embodying the rule of law.</em></p> <p>Must be nice to live in a world where;</p> <p>* the MP's expenses scandal<br /> * cash for questions<br /> * mass spying by the tabloids<br /> * mass spying by the state<br /> * secret trials<br /> * super injunctions<br /> * rendition for torture, and<br /> * monarchical veto of bills going before parliament</p> <p>never happened. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166988 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 16:09:03 +0000 SRD 166988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ed1 agree totally. </p> <p>have never understood why voting prisoners is such a hot button topic here. (although I suspect it correlates to failure to teach about miscarriages of justice...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166987 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 16:02:54 +0000 Ed1 166987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A trivial point:</p> <p>In respect to prisoner votes one of the prime ministers examples of unelected EU meddling, it seems interesting that the prime minister will argue the unelected EU is interfering in the Uk democracy by trying to impose a more democratic system of universal suffrage.</p> <p>Arguing it is more democratic for Westminster to decide against universal suffrage and stop those unelected Europeans imposes universal suffrage on the Westminster, claiming this is the democratic will of those the prime minister considers should be allowed to vote.</p> <p>I tend to think the right to vote should be separate from parliaments function as law makers if parliament can pass laws that has the effect of invaliding others right to vote then the law makers can influence the vote. </p> <p>If someone disagreed with polices of a government say for example the poll tax should they then denied the chance to vote for another government, I tend to think not.</p> <p>I think the right to vote should be separate from the whims of a current government. </p> <p>It seems a strange choice of argument; our democracy is being interfered with by unelected EU trying to impose greater democracy on us through universal suffrage.</p> <p> An "international body" trying to impose democracy on another country against the current leader’s will, god no -) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166985 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:57:14 +0000 SRD 166985@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This deals with some of the issues we've been discussing </p> <p><a href="http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/10/02/will-devolution-scupper-conservative-plans-for-a-british-bill-of-rights/" rel="nofollow">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/10/02/will-devolution-scupper-conservative-plans-for-a-british-bill-of-rights/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166984 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:46:58 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166984@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider</p> <p>Very interesting. Sounds like @Instography was spot on. Dog whistle proposal that can never be implemented.</p> <p>Tories haven't won a majority since 1992 and their share of the vote's been on the slide since. Sounds almost like they're becoming a protest party. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166981 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:23:05 +0000 Morningsider 166981@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>To be a signatory of the ECHR, you need to be a member of the Council of Europe (CoE). Only nation states can join the CoE. The UK is either in, or out. Welsh people can breath easy for now, safe from the threat of English red hot pokers.</p> <p>There is one exception to this rule - the EU is also a signatory to the ECHR. This means that a unilateral UK withdrawal might not remove convention protections from UK residents. It probably also means that the UK couldn't withdraw from the ECHR, without serious questions about its EU membership - another plus for right wing types I suppose. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166980 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:22:48 +0000 amir 166980@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"whilst the English become free to torture and enslave the Welsh? "</p> <p>Perhaps I can seek asylum </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166979 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:08:49 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Morningsider</p> <p>You may be right, but by their actions I become more and more foreign to them. Out of interest, could the ECHR remain in Northern Irish and Scots law whilst the English become free to torture and enslave the Welsh? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166977 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 14:54:55 +0000 chdot 166977@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>(Very) previously -</p> <p>"</p> <p>The Bill of Rights[1] is an Act of the Parliament of England passed on 16 December 1689.[2] It was a restatement in statutory form of the Declaration of Right presented by the Convention Parliament to William and Mary in March 1689 (or 1688 by Old Style dating), inviting them to become joint sovereigns of England. It lays down limits on the powers of the crown and sets out the rights of Parliament and rules for freedom of speech in Parliament, the requirement for regular elections to Parliament and the right to petition the monarch without fear of retribution. </p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166976 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 14:54:44 +0000 Morningsider 166976@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>IWRATS - you are reading far too much into this. Do you really expect a coherent policy from a right wing Tory about a document that has the both "European" and "Human Rights" in its title?</p> <p>In (what passes for) their minds, this is all a dastardly plot by Johnny foreigner to prevent us from sending those terrorist chappies back to where they came from. Not our problem if they then end up having their unmentionables wired into the national grid by the secret police. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166971 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 14:16:57 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166971@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Section 5b of Strand One of the Good Friday Agreement requires the ECHR to be in force in Northern Ireland;</p> <p><a href="https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/northernireland/good-friday-agreement.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/northernireland/good-friday-agreement.pdf</a></p> <p>One wonders if the intention is for England alone to opt out. In any case, our Irish brothers and sisters will doubtless be very confused by the proposal to renege on the agreement that restored a semblance of peace to Her Britannic Majesty's realm. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166967 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 13:45:55 +0000 chdot 166967@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Ken Clarke: Conservative ECHR plans are bewildering</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/105777/ken_clarke_conservative_echr_plans_are_bewildering.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/105777/ken_clarke_conservative_echr_plans_are_bewildering.html</a></p> <p>Need to register to read rest, but I'm sure it'll be on other sites soon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166948 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 11:52:41 +0000 Darkerside 166948@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Handy link Instography; cheers </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166940 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 11:31:34 +0000 chdot 166940@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Do we have rights to be aliens? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166939 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 11:29:33 +0000 Morningsider 166939@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's difficult to know where to start. The Guardian has the Conservative document setting out their "plans" for human rights law reform at:</p> <p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/interactive/2014/oct/03/conservatives-human-rights-act-full-document" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/politics/interactive/2014/oct/03/conservatives-human-rights-act-full-document</a></p> <p>Given that there is lots of sniping at "Labour's human rights act" and the like, you can assume this is a purely political document. From a policy or legal perspective it is a veritable canine feast.</p> <p>It does contain a few gems though, my favourite being "We will set out a clearer test in how some of the inalienable rights apply..." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166936 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 11:25:12 +0000 Instography 166936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a link in David Allen Green's post to a speech by Lord Bingham on the 75th anniversary of Liberty that's well worth reading since he deals with the common misrepresentations of the ECHR and HRA.</p> <p><a href="https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/lord-bingham-speech-final.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/lord-bingham-speech-final.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166921 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:33:46 +0000 Instography 166921@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dog whistle, headline grabbing, redtop appeasing nonsense that will go nowhere.</p> <p>See blogger / lawyer David Allen Green's view of it here: <a href="http://jackofkent.com/blog/" rel="nofollow">http://jackofkent.com/blog/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166918 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:29:22 +0000 chdot 166918@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No need for border raids. </p> <p>When *we* leave the Common Market there will be boatloads coming from the <strike>Empire</strike> Commonwealth. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166917 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:24:40 +0000 Darkerside 166917@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I infer that you are suggesting some kind of raiding party south of the border to capture labourers?</p> <p>You're right; let's not reject this out of hand. Think of all the cycle lanes we could build! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166915 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:23:24 +0000 chdot 166915@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I've yet to see anything that we wouldn't want to keep."</p> <p>I think *most* people would agree with that - inc various Conservative 'elder statespersons'. </p> <p>But this is about (populist) politics. </p> <p>There's an election coming u no. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166912 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:18:19 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166912@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Darkerside</p> <p>Surely in this day and age the prohibition on slavery and forced labour are at least arguable? Think of the deficit! Etc, etc, etc.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166911 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:12:48 +0000 Darkerside 166911@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I read the Wikipedia articles and then <a href="http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=court&amp;c=#n1354801701084_pointer">a few</a> of the info docs from the ECHR.</p> <p>I've yet to see anything that we wouldn't want to keep. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166910 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:12:12 +0000 SRD 166910@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Apologies if I am telling you all things you know (unlike morningsider), but basically they seem to be appealling to notion of 'parliamentary supremacy' ie that our elected representatives should have the power to over-rule human rights (potentially more 'democratic'). </p> <p>On the other hand, we want to hold parliament accountable to a constitution. There is not necessarily any need to go to international levels - eg the proposal that an independent scotland would have a justiciable human rights act/written constitution. </p> <p>Although this is more associated with presidential systems (notably the US and Germany) most parliamentary democracies that have descended from Westminster have also followed this path. </p> <p>It seems to work well. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13504#post-166907 Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:08:12 +0000 I were right about that saddle 166907@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I guess the first thing to do is to read the source documents and await @Morningsider...</p> <p><a href="http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf</a> </p>