http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Council looks to government over £260m roads bill" en Mon, 18 May 2026 18:08:47 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167542 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 14:06:58 +0000 Ed1 167542@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Opps I see I was comparing Non-Domestic Properties Rateable Values in relation to what edinburgh keeps rather than rates collected hence my ball point figures were complete nonsence-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167530 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 13:09:39 +0000 kaputnik 167530@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From 2008-2009 numbers here;<br /> <a href="http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/265167/0079445.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/265167/0079445.pdf</a></p> <p><code> Non-Domestic Rates Income Non-Domestic Rates Distributable Amount %<br /> East Renfrewshire £12,329,000 £32,706,000 265%<br /> East Dunbartonshire £19,555,000 £38,678,000 198%<br /> Eilean Siar £5,432,000 £9,626,000 177%<br /> Andus £22,505,000 £39,850,000 177%<br /> East Lothian £18,993,000 £33,509,000 176%<br /> Scottish Borders £22,817,000 £40,054,000 176%<br /> East Ayrshire £25,831,000 £43,584,000 169%<br /> Inverclyde £19,055,000 £29,979,000 157%<br /> North Ayrshire £31,525,000 £49,581,000 157%<br /> Aberdeenshire £55,773,000 £85,941,000 154%<br /> Clackmammanshire £11,776,000 £17,751,000 151%<br /> D&amp;G £36,595,000 £54,148,000 148%<br /> A&amp;B £23,361,000 £33,170,000 142%<br /> Moray £23,066,000 £32,166,000 139%<br /> Midlothian £21,123,000 £28,906,000 137%<br /> North Lanarkshire £91,521,000 £118,056,000 129%<br /> Fife £107,358,000 £130,219,000 121%<br /> South Ayrshire £36,275,000 £40,802,000 112%<br /> Perth &amp; Kinross £46,149,000 £50,519,000 109%<br /> Falkirk £53,527,000 £54,443,000 102%<br /> Orkney £7,165,000 £7,151,000 100%<br /> Highland £83,420,000 £77,966,000 93%<br /> West Lothian £66,552,000 £59,784,000 90%<br /> Dundee City £58,397,000 £51,896,000 89%<br /> Stirling £36,357,000 £31,732,000 87%<br /> Renfrewshire £74,986,000 £62,054,000 83%<br /> Glasgow City £299,345,000 £211,273,000 71%<br /> Shetland £12,373,000 £8,031,000 65%<br /> South Lanarkshire £175,334,000 £111,800,000 64%<br /> Edinburgh £293,190,000 £167,119,000 57%<br /> West Dunbartonshire £58,880,000 £33,363,000 57%<br /> Aberdeen £132,069,000 £73,870,000 56%</code></p> <p>The % figure is how the local authority NDI compares to the amount distributed to them by Holyrood.</p> <p>To put these numbers another way, the top 10 local authorities by per capita NDI income all end up getting less than 100% back. The bottom 20 all end up getting more back. It looks like fairly straightforward redistribution from big to low per capita authorities (i.e. East Renfrewshire seems to do "best" out of this deal, but has the lowest per capita NDI to begin with. East Dunbartonshire does 2nd best but has 2nd lowest per capita NDI. Etc.)</p> <p>Edinburgh is 5th "best off" by per capita NDI income, and is 3rd "worst off" when it comes to the share of it's total income given back. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167526 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 13:01:09 +0000 Nelly 167526@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Amen. Edinburgh should share the wealth"</p> <p>Agreed. And also should share in the central fund if required.</p> <p>It is pretty clear that this is what happens in London - i.e. they <strong>do</strong> create and contribute more tax take.............but when they have enormous capital projects, they draw on this using the same rationale - i.e. <em>The Capital</em> draws more traffic and hence needs more roads money for remediation.</p> <p>I would use the same argument for Glasgow due to its size / traffic volumes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167522 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:57:40 +0000 Ed1 167522@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“It's entirely possible you could have a smaller / less affluent council keeping 100% and still be far behind Edinburgh per capita with its 33% retention. “</p> <p>Because of the way the incentives are set all councils will pay some business rates to the Scottish government as far as can establish from those reports. It’s just that poorer councils can get more back. Edinburgh as a whole collectors more tax that its total budget. </p> <p>Personally I am not sure how much Edinburgh should keep or not.</p> <p>The arguments why Edinburgh should not keep all the business rates will be that Edinburgh should share with poorer areas.</p> <p>That Edinburgh benefits from national institutions, from the likes of the Scottish government jobs, NHS, the parliament, the universities , all these centrally and nationally funded institutions etc and those “claimants” at Victoria Quay that dressed up in suits and Audis who properly have less ability and education those who waiter the tables along the quay. (I am morally allowed to insult the Scottish government they illegally cancelled my employment contact 11 years ago, (Corruption of process lack of integrity in the system something else the Dutch and Germans may do better but is considered bad etiquette to mention -)</p> <p>All those “suits and Audis” bought by people from money than comes from Scotland as a whole but is spent in Edinburgh, of course I am being flippant but principle remains. </p> <p>Edinburgh gets more than its share of national spending so the higher rate collections are part of the fall out. Although would imagine Edinburgh would still have higher rates even if stripped out all the extra national things including parliament and gov, nhs and university about proportion etc. </p> <p>But these could only every really be guesses as say the parliament or library, or university being here pulls people in that do not even know or care that these exist as get other development that attract people any attributing could only be woolly guesses. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167518 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:39:34 +0000 kaputnik 167518@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If Edinburgh keeps 1/3 of its ratable income and the average is 2/3, it could still be that Edinburgh, by virtue of the size of the economy and scale of rates being paid, has an equal (or higher) per capita take.</p> <p>It's entirely possible you could have a smaller / less affluent council keeping 100% and still be far behind Edinburgh per capita with its 33% retention.</p> <p><strong>Edit</strong> - doing a quick few rough sums with the figures available, if councils collected their target amounts (BRIS figure) and kept 100% of it, Edinburgh would rank 5th out of 32 local authorities for per capita share (or 2nd for total share). South Lanarkshire, Aberdeen, West Dunbartonshire and Shetland would be ahead per capita, Glasgow total. Edinburgh would get 6 times the per capita average and twice the total average.</p> <p>If Edinburgh kept only 1/3 and everyone else 2/3, Edinburgh would be 16th of 32 on a per capita basis, 15% below the average, so not overly punished on that basis. It would still be 4th for the <u>total amount</u> of revenue retained (and twice the average).</p> <p>I know it's a bit rough and ready, but on the face of it Edinburgh doesn't have it <em>that</em> bad, but is being taken from a potential position of financial privelege to one where it is about average per capita and still has a large total amount of revenue.</p> <p>Shoot me down in flames for my glaring simplification now! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167513 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:19:40 +0000 Ed1 167513@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So broadly Edinburgh gives 2/3 of its rateable income to Scottish government compared to an average of about a 1/3 for councils. </p> <p>Business rates collected from Edinburgh being around billion. The exact figures will be in the public domain. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167511 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:07:32 +0000 Min 167511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So when London does it then its a bad thing.... </em></p> <p>Amen. Edinburgh <em>should</em> share the wealth. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167506 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 11:47:41 +0000 chdot 167506@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Meanwhile on Leith Walk -</p> <p>"</p> <p>Remedial works will also be carried out in some sections of carriageway where resurfacing has already taken place back in July in order to meet the standard of quality expected by the Council. </p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11196&amp;page=4&amp;replies=111#post-167505" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11196&amp;page=4&amp;replies=111#post-167505</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167504 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 11:39:53 +0000 Ed1 167504@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S4/SB_13-84.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S4/SB_13-84.pdf</a></p> <p>You can work it out loosely from these 2 reports. Although different years give a very lose ball point. Look at what council get to keep, and what this must be above target. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167501 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 11:27:28 +0000 crowriver 167501@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So in effect buiness rates are collected for the scottish government they then allocate form the total to each council based on need requirements."</p> <p>Yes, I'm aware of that thanks. What I'd like to know is the exact figures. I'm sure the records exist, and I intend to get hold of them.</p> <p>In my view local authorities ought to be able to keep more of the income collected by them in their areas. This would be better in terms of transparency and accountability. Why central government controls Non-domestic rates is hard to explain, except that central government likes to control everything it can... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167488 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:58:54 +0000 steveo 167488@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So when London does it then its a bad thing.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167484 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:43:42 +0000 Ed1 167484@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/3786/download_key_facts_and_figures_booklet_2014-2015_pdf_15263_kb" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/3786/download_key_facts_and_figures_booklet_2014-2015_pdf_15263_kb</a></p> <p>As far as I can figure out the council keep the council tax, but the business rates are controlled by the Scottish government they then allocated it to councils based on need for services. So in effect buiness rates are collected for the scottish government they then allocate form the total to each council based on need requirements.</p> <p>"In 2014-2015, Council Tax<br /> income represents 24% of the Council’s net General Fund Expenditure." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167483 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:36:13 +0000 crowriver 167483@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gibbo, the exact figures are hard to come by. Presumably they might be a bit divisive. I have made an FOI request on this matter to the Scottish government: I will get back when they do... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167478 Thu, 09 Oct 2014 08:55:38 +0000 gibbo 167478@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowdriver: </p> <p>"90 per cent of the money is lost to other parts of Scotland"</p> <p>I'd like to know what that means.</p> <p>The council's budget is made up mainly of central tax money, rather than local money. So where does this 90% come from? And where does it go? And what's the rationale for that? And how much money does it amount to?</p> <p>Normally, in a country, the capital benefits financially from hosting government etc. In which case, it's only fair for the capital to pay a "tax" to the rest of the country to even things out.</p> <p>But 90% is a very high number, leading me to suspect that it's 90% of a small part of the overall budget. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167415 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 14:15:06 +0000 crowriver 167415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"a council that's already gotten itself into deep debt because of its incompetence should be bailed out by the rest of Scotland... and generations to come."</p> <p>In fact, I think you'll find that due to the high business rates receipts in Edinburgh, and Edinburgh not getting most of this back, the situation is the other way round...</p> <p>"The council, politicians and business groups have long campaigned to see more of Edinburgh's rates invested in the city. At present, 90 per cent of the money is lost to other parts of Scotland." - <a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/business-rates-plan-to-plough-cash-back-into-deprived-areas-1-1239003">EEN, December 2007</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167409 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 13:59:31 +0000 chdot 167409@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Why was it not 100% before now?"</p> <p>Because of policies/staffing. </p> <p>BUT there is little evidence of it making any difference. </p> <p>A quick visual inspection of any recent trench filling, is unlikely to be able to anticipate future problems created by poor re-instatement <em>underneath</em> the tarmac. </p> <p>Utilities works should have longer term 'guarantees' (5 years?) - I assume they don't. </p> <p>Meanwhile 'normal' potholes get 'temporary repairs' which as we all know...</p> <p>Then there are the tarmac waves at bus stops, etc... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167407 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 13:47:10 +0000 gibbo 167407@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Lesley Hinds wants Holyrood to devolve more money so local authorities can attack the massive problem of potholes.</em></p> <p>I don't understand. Will this create more money?</p> <p>It sounds to me that her suggestion is that a council that's already gotten itself into deep debt because of its incompetence should be bailed out by the rest of Scotland... and generations to come.</p> <p>Without, of course, the current councillors all resigning as an acknowledgement of their inability to manage the budget correctly.</p> <p>The entire article - and all her suggestions are a reflection of just how useless she is. </p> <p>For example:</p> <p><em>Utilities companies that are responsible for many of the shoddy repairs on city streets now have 100 per cent of their roadworks inspected</em></p> <p>Why was it not 100% before now? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167405 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 13:32:50 +0000 I were right about that saddle 167405@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Almost all of the potholes that I see are due to botched hole filling by utility companies. Perhaps <em>they</em> might like to contribute to the rectification of our roads? No? Oh well then, as you were. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167399 Wed, 08 Oct 2014 13:23:04 +0000 chdot 167399@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-back-calls-for-national-aid-to-fix-roads-1-3566318" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-back-calls-for-national-aid-to-fix-roads-1-3566318</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167137 Mon, 06 Oct 2014 13:02:02 +0000 chdot 167137@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Really??</p> <p>It's got much worse than last reported -</p> <p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-20318,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-20318,00.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167135 Mon, 06 Oct 2014 12:48:21 +0000 AKen 167135@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I believe that there are ten thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire but that's maybe not an Edinburgh issue. Should I send some photos anyway? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167132 Mon, 06 Oct 2014 12:11:42 +0000 tk 167132@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And now we have the EEN pothole watch:</p> <p>WHERE ARE THE WORST POTHOLES?</p> <p>we’ve revealed the shocking overall condition of Edinburgh’s crumbling roads network this week. Now we need your help to tell us where the worst troublespots are.</p> <p>Are there potholes on your street or along the roads on your regular commute which are not being fixed? Tell us where they are and send us a picture if you can.</p> <p>Get in touch by emailing <a href="mailto:newsen@edinburghnews.com">newsen@edinburghnews.com</a> with your picture and contact details with “pothole watch” in the subject line.</p> <p>Send your photos to Pothole Watch, Edinburgh Evening News, Orchard Brae House, 30 Queensferry Road, </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13519#post-167130 Mon, 06 Oct 2014 11:56:39 +0000 chdot 167130@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p> Lesley Hinds wants Holyrood to devolve more money so local authorities can attack the massive problem of potholes.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-looks-to-government-over-260m-roads-bill-1-3563976" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/council-looks-to-government-over-260m-roads-bill-1-3563976</a> </p>