http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Bad parking pics? en Thu, 09 Apr 2026 06:28:07 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216660 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:57:44 +0000 fimm 216660@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm fairly sure that I've seen old sofas left down by the bins with a note on them along the lines of "sorry for any inconvenience, special uplift due XXXday" - and I don't think it is any more unreasonable for someone to store their old sofa temporarily in the street than their car!!</p> <p>What the law's view on this is may be different, I don't know. It may be that (properly taxed and insured) cars do have a different status in law to old sofas. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216659 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:55:02 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216659@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Here's another question to endanger peoples' sanity: Can I park my bicycle like a car, for example on the road (no yellows) or in parking bays? (I have a propstand and don't need a bike rack).</p> <p>As far as I can see, the relevant highwaycode rules 238-252 are not in the "rules for drivers" section and don't mention that they apply only to motor vehicles (except turning off the engine and opening doors...). So I can park my bicycle on the road, but shouldn't park in a cycle lane? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216655 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:34:18 +0000 neddie 216655@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It certainly seems to be fine to leave a one tonne bag of sand (or stones) on the side of the road.</p> <p>Stephan, you could put your bath in one of these and cover it over in a fine layer of sand:</p> <p><a href="http://www.diy.com/departments/hippobag-midibag-h900mm-w900mm-l900mm/54160_BQ.prd?icamp=recs" rel="nofollow">http://www.diy.com/departments/hippobag-midibag-h900mm-w900mm-l900mm/54160_BQ.prd?icamp=recs</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216654 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:33:42 +0000 fimm 216654@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>rule 1: "Participation in traffic requires being careful and mutual respect at all times. Everybody has to behave in a way that nobody else is injured, endangered, or - more than is unavoidable in the circumstances - obstructed or inconvenienced." </em></p> <p>Can we add this to the start of the British Highway Code too, please? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216653 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:31:09 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216653@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think it's about time I left this thread for my sanity. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216651 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:21:30 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216651@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC Ok, instead of the sofa, a real case. I want to redo my bathroom at some point so I will get a bathtub delivered. Can I leave it outside on the road for a couple of weeks until I get around installing it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=5#post-216649 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:17:40 +0000 ih 216649@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC It's only in our minds that it's apples and pears, but really there is very little difference. Each parked car takes up about 12 sq m, and collectively that is a colossal space that people just think they have a right to. As a start, I would like to see ALL new developments with an absolute ban on parking outside the curtilage of the development itself. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216647 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:16:33 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216647@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@TheBoy "If something isn't forbidden by law then it must by definition be legal? ... difference between the the way the law works in the UK and, say, France."</p> <p>I don't know France and I'm also not a lawyer, but for Germany there is some truth in that. Or perhaps it's more that we have codified law that generally starts with some general principle what's allowed and what isn't, and then goes on to more specific issues, whereas in the UK the first, general bit often isn't written up explicitly.</p> <p>While the UK highwaycode is just a collection of various recommendations, some coming from individual laws, others that somebody found useful but are not law. In Germany, we don't have such a thing, instead the traffic code is one big (mostly) consistent regulation (StVO for "Straßenverkehrsordnung") with all rules having the same legal status.</p> <p>The StVO starts with rule 1: "Participation in traffic requires being careful and mutual respect at all times. Everybody has to behave in a way that nobody else is injured, endangered, or - more than is unavoidable in the circumstances - obstructed or inconvenienced." (we had to memorise this for the driving license...). This rule is a catchall that applies to really everyone, whether in a car, on bike or on foot.</p> <p>Then one of the next rules says something like "vehicles have to use the carriageway" ("vehicles" means everything on wheels, inc bicycles) which implies that you're not allowed to drive on pavements or offroads. Then later rules specify that you can e.g. park on pavements when there is a sign permitting it and similar situations. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216646 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:05:12 +0000 neddie 216646@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What if I attach wheels to my sofa and move it across the road from time to time? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216645 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:03:31 +0000 ih 216645@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@gibbo thanks, that just about sums up the position of biker and walker.</p> <p>Not sure about your 'moving' versus 'stationary' cars hierarchy though. I think parkers are at the top. Most residential roads are now so narrowed by big fat cars on both sides that there's insufficient room for cars to pass in the middle. This incidentally is a key fault of quietways; the road is so contricted that you are intimidated by cars trying to get past whilst riding to avoid the door zone on the left. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216644 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 15:01:32 +0000 gibbo 216644@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC</p> <p><em>"It is perfectly legal to park on a pavement. It's illegal to drive upon it."</em></p> <p>Which is why it's so common to see drivers lift up their cars and place them on the pavement.</p> <p>It's the only way to park on a pavement without breaking the law. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216642 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:59:46 +0000 wingpig 216642@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"Because as far as I'm aware no-one takes a sofa to a place, leaves it, then comes back and moves it later."</em></blockquote></p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw7c32xZCcI" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw7c32xZCcI</a></p> <p>One rule for the banks, another for everyone else. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216640 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:54:03 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It <em>is</em> perfectly legal to park on a pavement. It's illegal to drive upon it. Yeah. The law is <em>that</em> daft around that.</p> <p>"<em>So far, no one has satisfactorily answered the question of what is special about a car compared with say a shed, or a canoe, or @Stephan's sofa, that means it's not just OK to leave it lying around, but that the council are somehow duty bound to provide you with some public space in which to leave it lying around, *for free*.</em>"</p> <p>Because as far as I'm aware no-one takes a sofa to a place, leaves it, then comes back and moves it later. A car is left, then removed. A sofa is left and... left. If a car is left and left then it is abandoned and the police put 'Police Aware' stickers on.</p> <p>Leaving a car parked to go back to later, and leaving a sofa in the same place, are <em>completely</em> different. Apple and pears.</p> <p>And I suspect if you left a sofa, then came back to find someone about to remove it, and you argued it was your sofa and you'd just come back for it to take it home again, then you'd be left to do that (perhaps with a stern look of course). Also, in order to determine if a car has been abandoned or not they've got those handy registration plates for the police to try and locate the owner. Maybe the solution is to have to register sofas?</p> <p>(I'm not saying it's right that people should park wherever they want - it's not,a nd it winds me up something rotten, but this is a conversation about an entirely falsely created equivalence that doesn't exist). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216639 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:42:22 +0000 gibbo 216639@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ih</p> <p><em>"It does seem now, in this country, that people feel they have an absolute right to park their car anywhere in the public realm that is not expicitly forbidden."</em></p> <p>According to a conversation I had with the police last week about a car blocking a pavement, it's ok for cars to park on pavements.</p> <p>The one exception to this is that, if they're blocking a driveway - and there's a car in the driveway - then that's illegal.</p> <p>So, basically...</p> <p>* Pavements are primarily for cars to park on, but can be used by pedestrians when no driver wants the space. </p> <p>* Bike lanes are primarily for cars to park in, but can be used by cyclists when no-one wants to park there.</p> <p>* Roads - you can park at the side of roads, but you can't block roads because moving cars need them.</p> <p>So, in Scotland's insane game of transport top trumps, cars beat bikes and pedestrians, and moving vehicles beat stationary vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216638 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:42:13 +0000 urchaidh 216638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've had this discussion a few times when people say that we can't limit parking in public spaces as people *must have* somewhere to park their car, as if it's a basic human right.</p> <p>So far, no one has satisfactorily answered the question of what is special about a car compared with say a shed, or a canoe, or @Stephan's sofa, that means it's not just OK to leave it lying around, but that the council are somehow duty bound to provide you with some public space in which to leave it lying around, *for free*. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216637 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:33:29 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216637@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Wilmington's Cow: Why is leaving a sofa "flytipping" but leaving a car in the same place legal? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216636 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:30:52 +0000 The Boy 216636@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Is surely true for all things full stop?</p> <p>If something isn't forbidden by law then it must by definition be legal? </p> <p>I'm obviously not a lawyer, but I've always understood that to be the difference between the the way the law works in the UK and, say, France. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216635 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:29:47 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216635@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's flytipping. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216630 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:05:58 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216630@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"'anywhere in the public realm that is not explicitly forbidden' That is indeed the way the law stands."</p> <p>Is this true for all objects, or do cars have a privileged legal status that allows them to be left everywhere?</p> <p>If I have a sofa that I don't want in my living room, can I park it on the public road? I don't see any signs "No sofas allowed", so it must be ok. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216628 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:58:24 +0000 ih 216628@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Klaxon</p> <p>'"an absolute right to park their car anywhere in the public realm that is not explicitly forbidden"</p> <p>That is indeed the way the law stands.'</p> <p>My comment wasn't so much about the legal position, but more about the perception that people have that there exists a right to park anywhere, irrespective of the nuisance caused. There are many discussions on this forum about double parking, pavement parking, parking in advisory lanes, blocking access (which this example probably falls into), all of which may be "legal" at the moment, but which in general "we" think are not a good thing. In my limited memory, there was a time when parking was more considerate of others. Clearly the increase in car ownership is the main factor in creating this nuisance but additionally people's "couldn't care less" attitude plays a part, as exemplified by the double parker who is only a few metres from a kerbside space. I believe over time that there will be fewer cars (in towns and cities) and social behaviour will improve, but I'm not holding my breath and things may have to get a lot worse before they get better. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216624 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:31:50 +0000 Klaxon 216624@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ih;<br /> "an absolute right to park their car anywhere in the public realm that is not explicitly forbidden"</p> <p>That is indeed the way the law stands. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216616 Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:15:40 +0000 chrisfl 216616@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>All the rope walk Townhouses are actually let out as short stay apartments: <a href="http://www.staycity.com/edinburgh/townhouses/">http://www.staycity.com/edinburgh/townhouses/</a> I'm guessing that most of the parked cars are people staying there? </p> <p>I note that on OpenStreetMap the parking was mapped via survey/Aerial imagery. Given that seems to be the common use, I can't really disagree... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216508 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:37:10 +0000 ih 216508@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It does seem now, in this country, that people feel they have an absolute right to park their car anywhere in the public realm that is not expicitly forbidden. This can't go on for ever. </p> <p>I noticed when following up on another thread (bike parking outside stations iirc) that in Japan, you can't own a car in the city unless you can show that you have a designated off-road parking space and a permit. A bit of that here would be good. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216505 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:15:11 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 216505@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How long before a car ends up in the drink? That would be ... a shame </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216502 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:56:10 +0000 crowriver 216502@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That would presumably be governed by their title deeds. Certain rights will be given, e.g.. common access, but there may also be conditions set on such access which prohibits parking. A case could be brought under 'nuisance' if another owner breached their title deeds or caused undue irritation to other owners. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216498 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:49:14 +0000 acsimpson 216498@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If the council has no recourse on public land what recourse would a fellow flat owner have if fellow residents/owners in their block parked on the landscaped spaces rather than on the roadway? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216497 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:45:23 +0000 neddie 216497@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC</p> <p>The warden I saw at Bainfield was a regular warden (I don't think blue meanies still exist(?)). He was ticketing cars fully on the pavement on a single yellow on public land (I think). He was also looking at (but possibly not ticketing) other cars on fully on the pavement <em>but within a set of metal studs</em>, possibly indicating private land.</p> <p>@Stephan</p> <p>Yes, it is those areas marked as 'car parking' on OSM. OSM could be wrong though (or even edited by the flat owners with wishful thinking).</p> <p>What strikes me as strange is that these 'spaces' are basically a free and unrestricted car park in a permit-holder zone. Anyone can park there. There is even a logo-ed "Angle Park Motors" car parked there constantly - and they are almost certainly not owners or visitors to the flats. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216490 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:48:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216490@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"If residents then chose to park wherever they want on the property does the council have any recourse? "</p> <p>I'm going to say 'no', with the answer being in the question. Residents are choosing to park where they like. The developer can easily say it provided actual parking spaces in line with its permission. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216486 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:37:44 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 216486@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Stickman Good point. Although I doubt if the council would do anything in a location like this where doesn't seem to be much demand, considering that the Council doesn't even check that school buildings don't suddenly collapse. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13785&page=4#post-216482 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:31:15 +0000 Stickman 216482@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How does this tie in with planning permission? Presumably part of the permission was that there would be a maximum of x car parking spaces. If residents then chose to park wherever they want on the property does the council have any recourse? In which case it makes the whole parking restrictions thing pointless as a developer can just include a big grassy area and then let residents work it out for themselves. </p>