CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda" en Wed, 13 May 2026 04:45:05 +0000 chdot on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=3#post-177873 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:43:43 +0000 chdot 177873@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "8 one bed flats, one room for 8 bikes." Presumably not just one person flats? Even if so, N+1 officially ruled out! Fountainbridge on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=3#post-177872 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 20:40:16 +0000 Fountainbridge 177872@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ 8 one bed flats, one room for 8 bikes. Also 4 out the front of the supermarket Funny how an almost identical previous application was completely slated by planning and eventually refused, and this one passed. Arellcat on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177830 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:26:29 +0000 Arellcat 177830@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ the flats are being built without car parking What about bike parking? Covered? Secure? Multiple bikes? stiltskin on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177827 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:23:19 +0000 stiltskin 177827@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ They don't enforce it as far as I recall. It is just that it would be very tricky to keep a car in Cambridge if you are living in one if the colleges. There is just nowhere to put it. fimm on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177825 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:20:25 +0000 fimm 177825@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Students in Cambridge are banned from having cars. I don't know how they enforce this, but it is said to be one of the contributors to the high levels of cycling in Cambridge. DaveC on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177820 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:49:46 +0000 DaveC 177820@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "STUDENTS living in a new housing complex planned for Leith would be banned from having cars under controversial rules." How would this be enforced? Are they going to follow every student as they leave the accomodation to ensure they board a bus/tram and not walk a few streets away to their parked private car? wingpig on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177811 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:18:21 +0000 wingpig 177811@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Pretty much every time I go along Bothwell Street there's some sort of protracted multiple-point-turn stuff going on, complicated by pedestrians' insistence on use of the road instead of the pooey/icey/littery footways, the oblique angle of entry required to some of the nose in/out parking spaces and the occupation of some of those spaces by extremely long vans. I assume any new student flats being built there would have to have some sort of special arrangement with the fire service to be able to ignore the usual bad-cooking false alarms as there's no way a standard appliance would be able to get down there at night-time. Fountainbridge on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177810 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:15:25 +0000 Fountainbridge 177810@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CEC standards are normally 1 space per property for new build (either flat or 5 bed house). Does seem strange they were allowed to exclude car parking. Presume shop will be a sainsburys local. No other supermarket within 20 yards. kaputnik on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177808 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:09:38 +0000 kaputnik 177808@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ NEWSFLASH; <a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/students-facing-car-ban-at-new-accommodation-block-1-3659306" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/students-facing-car-ban-at-new-accommodation-block-1-3659306</a> STUDENTS living in a new housing complex planned for Leith would be banned from having cars under controversial rules. Not really that controversial, where are you going to stick 240 cars in Bothwell Street?! This latest plan supersedes an earlier proposal for 71 residential flats on the site, which planners were reportedly “minded to grant”. There's always money for student <strike>open prisons</strike> apartments in Edinburgh. kaputnik on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177806 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:56:36 +0000 kaputnik 177806@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I thought the issue was more about the access paths heading northwards rather than the actual building? Yes think you are right, the flats will be built on the 1st floor level above that frame, with a patio / embankment extension out the back with its own little bit of path onto the main cycle path. The issue seems to be how much of the existing embankment they are cutting into / reprofiling to create this access. as it only contains 1 bed flats And some price for them too! Wangling out of tram / safer routes to school contributions aside, I scrutinised all the documents and it does appear the developer has done everything "by the book" in terms of planning regarding the trams and that the mess up was on the council's side. I did note the response from the transport dept. was negative; the flats are being built without car parking, and the response was that this would be a bad thing for transport as it meant that flat owners would park their cars on the side streets around Balbirnie. I take it the assumption in planning is that everyone owns a car and the only solution is to build parking spaces for all? Fountainbridge on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177792 Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:11:09 +0000 Fountainbridge 177792@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Photo below as mentioned by kaputnik. No sign of any work on the site. I thought the issue was more about the access paths heading northwards rather than the actual building? <a href="https://flic.kr/p/pRr9ML"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7469/15655621334_fc5e6e623e.jpg"></a><a href="https://flic.kr/p/pRr9ML">150113130539IMG_0035</a> by <a href="https://www.flickr.com/people/130059894@N04/">fountainbridge</a>, on Flickr As a side note I had a look at the planning permissions for the site. Seems they managed to wangle out of "safer routes to school" contribution as it only contains 1 bed flats and is unlikely to have any residents attending school. They also managed to have their tram contribution reduced from 43k to 20k - as CEC planning had said in emails it was not likely to exceed 20k. Fountainbridge on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177517 Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:12:55 +0000 Fountainbridge 177517@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ All the possible tram routes are still protected from development. That includes the Granton, Leith and Little France / Niddrie spurs. Also heard rumblings of protected land for an extension to Dalkeith. I'm sure the original documents put to the Scottish Parly for funding showed a single line down to Granton. Parly then asked Edin Council to beef up the plans, at which point the line became duelled. As the route will probably never loop as planned, I wonder if a single track with double at the station would be possible. kaputnik on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-177506 Mon, 12 Jan 2015 12:45:19 +0000 kaputnik 177506@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Well they've either decided not to proceed with the tram, or the development wasn't encroaching on it, because the steel frame is now up to ground floor level at the site. acsimpson on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-175151 Tue, 09 Dec 2014 13:44:55 +0000 acsimpson 175151@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Currently the section from Princess street to York Place only seems to serve the purpose of ensuring you can get a seat heading west. Otherwise in my experience you're quicker using the Princess Street stop and walking to and from York Place. If they extend it down Leith Walk I hope they also fix the East End bottle neck to ensure a smooth journey through town. chdot on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-175049 Mon, 08 Dec 2014 21:22:22 +0000 chdot 175049@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "even getting it down to the foot of the walk will make all the different with a good volume of short journeys carrying those going to the shops/trains/buses" Yes, but the point is - will there be enough extra passengers to justify the expense? Elsewhere Public Transport would be seen as a 'public good' and paid for by the national government or extra local taxes - perhaps after a referendum... Klaxon on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-175047 Mon, 08 Dec 2014 21:06:32 +0000 Klaxon 175047@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Not sure the 'Novelty Period' can be called a thing any more, it's been running since spring. I've been on Gyle-bound trams a few times at rush hour now and each time by Edinburgh Park it's been crowded before emptying roughly 50/50 between Edinburgh Park and Gogarburn. Extra revenue - probably not immediately - but maybe indirectly as this will be freeing up seats on the 22 and making it more attractive again for other passengers. Other way any time I've seen it it's nearly dead by the time it's round the corner and into York Place... even getting it down to the foot of the walk will make all the different with a good volume of short journeys carrying those going to the shops/trains/buses. AKen on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174766 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:28:38 +0000 AKen 174766@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Apparently they play rugby there as well and have the occasional crowd. PS on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174765 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 16:10:01 +0000 PS 174765@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <strike>Take That</strike> One Direction To be fair, concerts do happen at Murrayfield, it's not unreasonable to expect that to continue (Foo Fighters in 2015) and for gig-goers to use the tram to get there. chdot on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174750 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:16:57 +0000 chdot 174750@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've given up following this closely, but my understanding was that some of planning was on the basis that 'we know that some bits will have to be undone/redone' but also working on 'the tram won't be extended for another 10 years/never'. BUT - as far as I'm aware - this wasn't the 'issue' for the bits that are currently being done. I think most of the 'extend the tram' talk is hype/fantasy (and will remain so) apart from the possibility (apparently a probability) of extending the line for a few blocks down from Picardy Place. In terms of street width/space I think there is now more of an assumption that the buses will run in the same lane as the trams - there will also presumably be fewer buses (if the tram ever gets to the bottom of Leith Walk). There is of course also a possibility that some parts of LW will be bike/bus/tram only. The 'passenger numbers according to business plan' notion is based on the novelty period + a Take That concert! Don't know how much pensioner travel is taken into account. SG only pays for buses so, for the tram use CEC (I mean council tax payers) is paying itself (I mean TE/LB). In addition I don't know what amount of passengers/revenue is coming from people who were already using the buses. It seems unlikely that extending the tram to Leith will add many paying passengers who aren't already bus users. The tram doesn't seem to have reduced bus numbers/frequency/routes, though a longer tram route might make that possible. Of course CEC has LOTS of trams (bought enough to service the 'planned' routes) and plenty of 'spare' track. Though apparently some has already 'disappeared' (don't know if EN or LH knows that). However - in spite of all the 'moving of services' on LW (for the tram) there isn't a high degree of confidence that these were done well enough for there to be no problems if/when more track is laid. SRD on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174739 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:45:53 +0000 SRD 174739@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "ripped up" the median strip has been maintained. surely what they are getting at is not putting in the cycle infra because the road will be 'too narrow' once the trams actually put in? PS on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174736 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:39:31 +0000 PS 174736@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The £9 million upgrade of Leith Walk has not been “future-proofed” to allow for an extension to the tram network – meaning some of the work is likely to have to be ripped up. This is "interesting" as I am sure the Cooncil guys at the McDonald Road Library Leith Walk consultation day said they had to design it all to allow space for future tram provision. PS on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174735 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:34:54 +0000 PS 174735@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ In a high density areas can have more cars per miles etc even if lower car percentage per house. This is true, but there are also a lot of roads perpendicular to Leith Walk with nose-in parking and last time I was down there, a lot of spare space. chdot on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174733 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:33:45 +0000 chdot 174733@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Meanwhile the EN is concerned with a different aspect- " The £9 million upgrade of Leith Walk has not been “future-proofed” to allow for an extension to the tram network – meaning some of the work is likely to have to be ripped up. " <a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/no-room-for-trams-after-9m-leith-walk-works-1-3626011" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/no-room-for-trams-after-9m-leith-walk-works-1-3626011</a> Ed1 on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174732 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:28:04 +0000 Ed1 174732@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Why is there all that space given over to parking in Leith Walk again? " I would guess for retail but the "51% of households in Leith and Leith Walk (54% in Leith Walk alone) do not own cars (compared to 39% for Edinburgh as a whole)." Its number of car owners to road space which would be related to density that would be the revelant measure. In a high density areas can have more cars per miles etc even if lower car percentage per house. Leith walk is more dense than suburbs so can have more cars per miles etc even if lower ownership may be. PS on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174730 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:18:35 +0000 PS 174730@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ From the report: 51% of households in Leith and Leith Walk (54% in Leith Walk alone) do not own cars (compared to 39% for Edinburgh as a whole). Why is there all that space given over to parking in Leith Walk again? I were right about that saddle on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174729 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:12:34 +0000 I were right about that saddle 174729@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Ed1 The notion of the subjunctive as a conserved quantity is fantastic. Thank you. PS - it has been suggested that everyone be issued with five exclamation marks at birth to use as they wish through life. Ed1 on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174727 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:06:40 +0000 Ed1 174727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It may be caused by your use of the subjunctive (were)rather than the indicative (was) in your user name. This meant that the world was short of 1 subjunctive. As one had been missed used for something else. Like when I used the wrong bolt on my mudflaps the long one, when did not need the long one, then when I needed the long one was already used. kaputnik on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174725 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:00:06 +0000 kaputnik 174725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ approved then there will be another (£400,000) study Budget challenge? What budget challenge?! I were right about that saddle on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174724 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:53:23 +0000 I were right about that saddle 174724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Morningsider Thanks. The failure to use the subjunctive tone in the 'recommendations' section has set my teeth on edge straight away. 'Electric traction...','..patronage numbers have been in line with business case expectations.' Gah! Who writes this stuff? Morningsider on ""Leith and Granton spur tram routes back on agenda"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=13830&page=2#post-174721 Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:37:59 +0000 Morningsider 174721@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Council report now available online - some pretty outrageous tram puffery in there. If approved then there will be another (£400,000) study into extending the line down Leith. The group managing the study nicely excludes any councillors. Also, looks like parts of the Leith Programme will be delayed/altered/shelved. Details: <a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/45588/item_89_-_future_investment_in_public_transport_-_potential_tram_extension" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/45588/item_89_-_future_investment_in_public_transport_-_potential_tram_extension</a>