CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling? http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling? en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 02:07:52 +0000 chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175764 Sun, 14 Dec 2014 11:59:47 +0000 chdot 175764@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " The deputy leader, Dundee East MP Stuart Hosie, will be responsible for producing the manifesto. " Sunday Herald (Westminster 2015) I were right about that saddle on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175646 Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:43:34 +0000 I were right about that saddle 175646@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Instography You've identified democracy as a barrier to tackling both obesity and to making active travel easier, which is interesting. I think I posted this before, but the best tutor I had at university has suggested that democracy is the main barrier to doing anything about impending climate chaos; <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Democracy-Survival-Governance-Biosphere-Crisis/dp/0953299082/ref=asap_B004M3Q43S?ie=UTF8" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.co.uk/Democracy-Survival-Governance-Biosphere-Crisis/dp/0953299082/ref=asap_B004M3Q43S?ie=UTF8</a> I think I'll see if I can get hold of him for a chat in the new year. I still think that democracy can be the answer provided everyone joins in and informs themselves. Pretendy democracy certainly doesn't work too well. As regards who proposes war in their manifesto, I believe the Italian Futurists did, but most of them froze to death in the Dolomites in WWI. Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175567 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:22:37 +0000 Instography 175567@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yeah, it's not a sunny picture. chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175557 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 22:04:26 +0000 chdot 175557@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " And there have been definite cycle crusaders in charge of transport policy in a few European cities from time to time, so they certainly exist. Only problem is we don't have much power to choose one, so the best we can do is to get the best parties into power and then just pray that whoever becomes transport convener or minister is at the least pro-active on cycling and at the best a crusader! " If that's the best 'we' can hope for, it'll take for ever/never happen. Need to work on whoever is 'in power'. There is a new regime just beginning. Nicola Sturgeon hasn't shown any interest in 'cycling' (as far as I am aware). New Transport Minister isn't an obvious improvement on the previous one - he just moved up a rung! Shona Robison has shown an interest in "active travel". BUT it's NOT (just) about Transport - it's about Health, Wellbeing, Inequality etc. etc - all the things this (SNP) Government is supposed to care about. There is a "crusader" already in Holyrood, an Edinburgh MSP too AND in the Government party - works closely with Green MSP Alison Johnstone - " Jim Eadie MSP (@JimEadie_msp) 11/12/2014 19:13 @UncleKempez Asked John Swinney today in Parly to allocate funds for cycling. Has agreed to meet me to discuss. Thanks for getting in touch " DdF on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175543 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:50:12 +0000 DdF 175543@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Very much agree with @inst implication that what happens depends a great deal on the individual politician (and sometimes officer) who is in the position of power - often more important even than the party in power. e.g. Labour Sarah Boyack's funding initiatives (there was another really big one in addition to CWSS, but scrapped by later transport ministers). Yet the transport ministers who followed her, Iain Gray and Wendy Alexander, had little personal interest in or understanding of cycling as a form of transport - hence the scrapping of her other funding initiative. All 3 were Labour, working under the same overall policy umbrella, but with very different outcomes. Ditto more recently when the Lib Dems were in (joint) control of Edinburgh and had the chair of Transport Cttee (and they were the ones with the 'Model Cycle Friendly City manifest). The first Transport Convener Phil Wheeler was content just to let things carry on as they were. Then late in the day he was replaced by Cllr Gordon Mackenzie who was really proactive and was the guy - partly because he knew that they might be slaughtered at the next election - who managed to push through the policy of 5% of transport spending for cycling, rising by 1% a year. So Sarah Boyack and Gordon Mackenzie were highly pro-active in bringing in great new initiatives, but did not quite fit the 'crusading' label. But we have had one 'crusader' - though primarily in relation to buses rather than bikes - Labour councillor David Begg (now Professor) when he was transport convener, pushed through the Greenways and couldn't care less that he was pillioried by the Evening News at the time. Also started the moves to ban cars from Princes St, <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2013/04/are-cyclists-buses-or-taxis/">proudly installed Princes St cycle lanes</a> [see picture at end of link], etc, etc. That he was ahead of his time is shown by the subsequent removal of Pr St bike lanes and now the council <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2014/08/bus-lane-retreat/">retreating on bus lanes</a> - so sad! And there have been definite cycle crusaders in charge of transport policy in a few European cities from time to time, so they certainly exist. Only problem is we don't have much power to choose one, so the best we can do is to get the best parties into power and then just pray that whoever becomes transport convener or minister is at the least pro-active on cycling and at the best a crusader! Dave on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175540 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:34:59 +0000 Dave 175540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ There would be no problem with cycling provision if it made the kind of money that the last few wars have made us! That's exactly the problem... chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097&page=2#post-175536 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:07:01 +0000 chdot 175536@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "it needs to be fundamentally undemocratic" Only if you believe politicians think 'unless it's in the manifesto we can't do it'. Not sure how many parties have put 'go to war' in their manifesto. Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175535 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:03:15 +0000 Instography 175535@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Don't know. I'm generally pessimistic. I think the trouble is that I think we're waiting for one of two things. Either a tragedy with the impact of the London bombings that forces a fundamental rethink of how we organise transport in our cities or a crusader, willing to withstand the criticism of motorists and the Evening News type of press, to force through the sort of changes that have been seen in London or New York. The first you wouldn't wish for and odds of the second seems remote. Either way it needs to be fundamentally undemocratic. If you ask people to vote for it, it'll go the way of the congestion charge. DdF on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175532 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:57:03 +0000 DdF 175532@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @insto Yes, it is the CWSS fund which is still ring-fenced for "walking, cycling, safer streets". It is allocated to councils annually on a per capita basis. The Scotgov 'recommends' to councils that a minimum % (from memory around 40%) of this should go to cycling projects. When SNP came to power they tried hard to scrap the fund, but the Greens made it a condition of budget support that it was retained. However, the SNP did cut its amount gradually year by year until 14/15 (i.e. election coming into sight!) when it had quite a jump, although still not to the level the previous Lab/Lib administration had been allocating. Yes, it was Sarah Boyack who introduced the fund when she was transport minister many years ago, and it is pretty remarkable it has survived, though with a lot of lobbying at certain points, such as the above case when SNP first came to power. It is a vital fund, since without it a lot of councils would invest zero in cycling - around a third of councils put nothing of their own capital into cycling, relying solely on CWSS money (+ any match funding they can get from Sustrans). There's more in the Spokes bulletins annual surveys, the '<a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/B120pall.reduced.pdf">Late 2014</a>' issue and similar from <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/bulletin/">earlier year issues</a>. sallyhinch on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175528 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:31:40 +0000 sallyhinch 175528@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @insto - as far as I know it has so far, but others are better informed than me on these matters I were right about that saddle on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175526 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:52:59 +0000 I were right about that saddle 175526@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Instography What then is the best way to proceed? Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175524 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:38:27 +0000 Instography 175524@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The idea that they didn't want to be seen as cyclists suggests a propensity to cringe in the face of motorists never mind an organised lobby. @sally Did that ring fencing survive the concordat between the minority SNP government and Cosla? sallyhinch on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175523 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:22:05 +0000 sallyhinch 175523@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @IWRATS All of the remotely bike friendly stuff the Scottish Government seems to have done (CAPS target for instance) seems to have happened when the SNP were a minority administration that needed the Greens to prop them up. That can't be a coincidence. They've been backpedalling, if you'll pardon the pun, ever since OTOH Sarah Boyack did ringfence cycling, walking and safer streets money when she was Transport Minister under Labour. Without that, there's some LAs wouldn't spend anything on cycling at all, even with Sustrans match funding I were right about that saddle on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175517 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:51:03 +0000 I were right about that saddle 175517@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So if I understand correctly the hive-mind conclusion is that everyone on here should join the Scottish Greens and campaign as hard as possible for them in the 2016 general election? They're the only party that wouldn't automatically cringe in the face of the car lobby once in power. Is that it? chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175504 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:14:40 +0000 chdot 175504@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ This could have been written by 'us' (but I presume it wasn't) In latest Private Eye - " R O A D R A G E Jams tomorrow CHANCELLOR George Osborne's announcement of £15bn of trunk-road schemes is the latest outcome of Whitehall's short-sighted obsession with making Britons more dependent on cars. The spending spree rests on the govemment's transport forecasts, but these reflect political intent, not natural inevitability, because peoples behaviour is heavily influenced by government policies on transport and planning. A little-noticed Commons disclosure to Lib Dem MP Julian Huppert last month revealed that the government expects trips per person by car drivers to rise rapidly in Great Britain, from 448 a year on average next year to 465 in 2020 and 507 in 2040. To achieve enough growth in car traffic to appease the road and oil lobbies, the government expects trips per person by every other type of transport to fall. That would be laughable if the forecasts were meant to acknowledge recent trends. As people gravitate towards living in higher-density urban areas, the obvious model for transport forecasters is London, where bus, rail and cycle journeys are rising. Instead, the govemment expects a 26 percent fall in GB bus trips per person by 2040. Cuts to bus subsidies have paved the way, reducing or axing services outside London and pushing fares up faster than inflation. A fall in rail trips per person is also forecast (despite Crossrail, HS2 and electrification, etc); and rail fares have also risen as subsidy has dropped, while Osborne has engineered the opposite for motorists. As diesel and petrol prices have fallen to a four-year low, public finances have taken a hit from reduced VAT revenue and Osbomes refusal to increase fuel duty. Were "active travel" to rise, one beneficiary would be the NHS; but the government predicts a 6 percent drop in walking trips per person by 2040 and a 7 percent drop in cycling. Communications technology is already simplifying car sharing by matching liftseekers with drivers. and that could become a mainstream option in the future - but the government expects trips per person by car passengers (as opposed to drivers) to drop by 9 percent by 2040. Britain realized in the 1990s that building more roads wouldn't solve congestion or other problems caused by growing traffic. Osborne's £15bn tank-roads package merely scratches the surface of what the network will need if it is to cope with the predicted 13 percent increase in trips per person by drivers, with or without passengers, plus the impact of population growth. Worse, the expanded trunk roads will feed more traffic on to secondary roads, which already need £12bn worth of repairs. Expanding urban streets and highways to tackle future traffic jams is impossible unless were prepared to demolish buildings, strip out cycle lanes and force pedestrians back into subways. So the outcome of Whitehall's policies, predicated on a 13 percent growth in car joumeys, is that English traffic congestion (measured as seconds lost per mile) is officially forecast to rise by 69 percent in London from 2010 to 2035, 70 percent in large cities and 103 percent in meal areas. 'Hedgehog' " Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175442 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:53:11 +0000 Instography 175442@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The Greens are still fresh enough to be disappointing. The Scottish Government could construct a narrative if they wanted to. They constructed a visionary active travel narrative for 2030 because it suited them to look interested in some point in some long distant future. They don't construct a short term funding and actually doing something narrative because the alternative building bridges and dualling carriageways narrative suits them better. chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175437 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:29:25 +0000 chdot 175437@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Chris Boardman (@Chris_Boardman) 05/12/2014 10:41 I've just realized that I can't hold myself responsible for what people who don't listen think. It's liberating " chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175422 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:51:16 +0000 chdot 175422@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Ah, you were mostly having a dig at the Greens. I think they should be more 'visible' on cycling - BUT Alison Johnstone is co-chair of all party cycling group at Holyrood. Not sure about your London/Marchmont axis. In London cycling is a way of 'saving transport money' - more people on bikes, less pressure on buses/tube - not that they aren't spending a LOT on rail! Government in Scotland is able to look at (potential) transport/health/other savings - as well as all the soft/(politically) aspirational stuff. Somehow the civil servants (and politicians) aren't able (or perhaps just not willing) to look at the sums and "construct a narrative" (as they say these days). Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175418 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:27:22 +0000 Instography 175418@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'd assume that Green politicians actually believe all that green stuff so their reticence, their concern about being seen to be cyclists, reflects their willingness to compromise their essential beliefs to win votes. So they become cynical. I suppose if they become more electorally successful, they'll become more cynical and they'll start to attract the sort of sociopath who sees it as a good political career move. I suspect SNP politicians, on the other hand, are supremely cynical from the outset and to the core. They don't really believe most of what they say (apart from independence - they really believe that and don't really care what they need to say or who they need to get into bed with to achieve that). Jim Murphy cynical. If you imagine the balance of London as being like Marchmont and Sciennes then the willingness of politicians to talk positively about cycling makes sense. Cycling has tipped over to the point where it is advantageous to be supportive regardless of your basic political position. But in a world of 60% car ownership and 1% cycling the voting and budgeting arithmetic seems self-explanatory. chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175417 Thu, 11 Dec 2014 00:09:58 +0000 chdot 175417@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Would it be too cynical to suggest that they're each as cynical as the other and that votes trumps principles or beliefs every time?" Probably not, but I'm not sure if you're saying 'we like ActiveTravel, but the voters don't (except in a few odd pockets) so we're not going to say/do anything'(?) It's only 'us' that 'care' about 'active travel'. Actually mostly just the cycling bit - and as 'we' already do it, not even sure about the "care"! Doing more for cyclists (including spending money) seems to be politically acceptable in London, (today - <a href="http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-cycling-quietways-will-open-next-may-says-mayor-9914728.html)" rel="nofollow">http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-cycling-quietways-will-open-next-may-says-mayor-9914728.html)</a>, so WHY are Scottish politicians (including Edinburgh ones) still so timid? Instography on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175405 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:41:50 +0000 Instography 175405@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I forget, who has been running Edinburgh and making the progress (not enough, of course) on cycling? Maybe it's not a party political issue as much as vote winning issue. I suspect if the Greens or SNP want to take Labour seats in middle-class cycling areas of Edinburgh they'll run a very localised campaign that talks up their commitment to cycling and active travel and related issues locally. But the national manifestoes will say hee haw. Would it be too cynical to suggest that they're each as cynical as the other and that votes trumps principles or beliefs every time? amir on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175396 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:00:47 +0000 amir 175396@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yep, and it's about saving money (on health +) and making people happier. It would be nice if politicians would actually try to persuade people (like the the referendum) - they lack the pelotas. Kim on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175380 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:18:46 +0000 Kim 175380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Cycling gets nobody's vote at the moment and no party is going to make itself look odd by talking about it." Odd how for the last three years we consistently saying that PoP was the biggest demonstration they had see outside of Holyrood. Also an increasing number of MSPs are reporting that cycling issues are dominating their in-boxes... Active travel is a great idea as it achieves so many policy objectives, so here are <a href="http://www.kimharding.net/blog/?p=1647">a few Manifesto suggestions</a>, humm, maybe time to revisit and update that post again... chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175377 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:00:21 +0000 chdot 175377@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "The Irish got there first on the smoking ban. The rest of the EU was ahead on the drink drive limits..." True, but the SNP 'likes to be ahead of Engerland'. It COULD be on this, but doesn't want to be. minus six on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175376 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:39:32 +0000 minus six 175376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ We live in a country run by a government that talks about fairness and inequality and poverty and health etc. etc. and yet FAILS to 'understand' the benefits of cycling Perhaps they cynically understand (and choose to reflect) the mean-spirited narrow-minded parochial attitude that pervades the country. Pockets of liberation sure, but in an ocean of mediocrity. neddie on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175375 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:33:20 +0000 neddie 175375@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I don't think the Scottish Govt is 'ahead' of anything. They are followers, not leaders. The Irish got there first on the smoking ban. The rest of the EU was ahead on the drink drive limits... chdot on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175373 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:09:01 +0000 chdot 175373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Easy to forget on here how actively disliked we are out there" BUT it's not about 'us' - or the 'not us' who already ride bikes. It's about everyone else - a lot of whom (according to 'surveys') want to cycle, OR AT LEAST want to feel it's 'safe' for them or their children. AND the 'everyone' who is fed up waiting at the side of the road trying to cross - or waiting for a bus stuck in a queue of vehicles with no passengers. Not sure how many votes there were in banning smoking in pubs - lot of opposition from individuals and 'vested interests'. Don't suppose there are many votes in reducing drink driving limits (though a certain amount of manufactured opposition by people apparently 'speaking on behalf of' poor motorists who might be confused/penalised after crossing the border! There might actually be votes in minimum pricing for alcohol, but some commercial interests are doing their best to stop it. We live in a country run by a government that talks about fairness and inequality and poverty and health etc. etc. and yet FAILS to 'understand' the benefits of cycling (and walking) on individuals' health, benefits to 'society' AND that investment in it is highly cost effective. Are there votes in "land reform"? Hard to say, but apart from a tiny number of campaigners and a few large landowners does anyone care - in an electoral sense? 'I'll vote for the party that does something about land ownership' - really?? This is not about 'us' or 'cycling' or even (probably very misguided) fears about 'voters don't like cyclists'. It's about the most popular party in Scotland - which is quite likely to be in power for at least another five years - 'understanding' that the things 'we' happen to like/care about might actually be 'sensible' and perhaps even popular if the Gov just got on with it and didn't (bother to) make a big deal about it. The reason for starting this thread was to highlight that Chris Boardman thinks things are about to change down south (he might well be wrong). It would be unfortunate if he is right and political parties in Scotland had nothing similar (or better) to offer. DdF on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175357 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:42:50 +0000 DdF 175357@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Even if the SNP promise, and indeed allocate, loads of cash for cycling/walking infrastructure, will it be spent on that? After all, a promise in a manifesto is nothing compared to a promise made to Parliament and recorded in the Official Report - <a href="https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/542685788371431424">yet this is what is now happening to such a promise</a>. [RTs welcome!] I were right about that saddle on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175355 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:18:54 +0000 I were right about that saddle 175355@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Yup. Easy to forget on here how actively disliked we are out there. SRD on "Could SNP have best manifestos for cycling?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14097#post-175353 Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:09:13 +0000 SRD 175353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ but it is true fir the greens. exactly what green politicians have said to me - they may be cyclists, but they don't want to be 'identified' as cyclists.