http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: One for morningsider + wilmington's cow en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 02:08:45 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176385 Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:26:19 +0000 Snowy 176385@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not a legal person but it's an interesting logic question.</p> <p>"Parent's aren't allowed in Mrs ACS's school carpark." A lot will depend how that's actually displayed and notified to anyone driving into the car park. Does it say who is allowed to park, or does it restrict who is allowed to enter the whole carpark?<br /> If signs say something mindless like 'no parent parking' then it's probably irrelevant - it would rule out parking for any other humans who also happen to have children, and you could argue it should not be selectively enforced.<br /> If on the other hand it says 'staff only parking', that's clearer and harder to argue with.<br /> But what if you haven't actually parked? If the area is publicly accessible and if the accident in question happened while driving in the area but not parking in it, then signage about parking wouldn't apply. The signs would have had to say 'no entry'.</p> <p>(see other conversations about use of private car parks basically being an unwritten agreement between you and the owner, mainly under contract law) </p> <p>Regardless though, this concept is highly dodgy that you are not insured if your car is in some way 'not allowed' to be there. </p> <p>What if you are in an NCP and your parking ticket runs out? You are now in breach of your 'contract' with NCP. So your insurance company would refuse to pay?</p> <p>Sounds like the thin end of the wedge from the insurance company and should be challenged. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176063 Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:37:27 +0000 wingpig 176063@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Without also applying to private land, how would motor vehicle insurance cover a car which was parked on a private driveway and thieved/set on fire/driven into/crushed by a falling tree? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176059 Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:10:51 +0000 acsimpson 176059@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>At a slight tangent how do car parks work with insurance in Scotland?</p> <p>Parent's aren't allowed in Mrs ACS's school carpark. When one went in and crashed their insurance company promptly advised them that they weren't covered because it was private land and they weren't allowed to be there.</p> <p>A couple of teachers then phoned their insurance companies to check that they would be covered. The insurance companies refused to give an answer. Can anyone here confirm if insurance is valid in a private carpark to which only certain people are permitted? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176020 Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:18:16 +0000 KeepPedalling 176020@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>How interesting. Does this mean that we have a right to cycle through Quartermile? They also have a wonderful large underground car park that is a joy to explore when it is raining.</p> <p>l </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176016 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:26:46 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 176016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Indeed Dave, and I got off, and didn't argue with them beyond pointing out a taxi that drove on at the same time.</p> <p>Kenny, nope, apparently because pedestrians don't see cyclists and therefore we're a danger, whereas taxis and tour buses aren't because they can be heard. So the folk in the booth told me! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176015 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:23:06 +0000 Kenny 176015@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If you think Scotland is better, try cycling up to the castle esplanade.</em></p> <p>Erm...</p> <p><a href="http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/247130357" rel="nofollow">http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/247130357</a></p> <p>Are you not supposed to be allowed up there on a bike? No-one stopped me. Maybe the fact it was the evening meant I wasn't caught?</p> <p>/me is confused </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176014 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:09:55 +0000 Dave 176014@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Dave,if anyone was willing to go up to the Esplanade and ride around in the hope of someone stopping him so he could then mention the land access laws then surely it would be you?</em></p> <p>Had a dredge back through memory lane, I refer the honourable gentleman to <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1657">WC vs Historic Scotland</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176013 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:59:27 +0000 Morningsider 176013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Footpaths are either:</p> <p>1. Roads where access rights have been restricted to pedestrians only, generally through traffic regulation orders. Legally, use by anyone other than pedestrians is an offence.<br /> 2. Bits of tarmac/gravel/mud called "footpaths" with no legal status - generally useable by pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders under land reform access rights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176012 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:55:02 +0000 chdot 176012@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"defines a road as "any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means)" "</p> <p>Really? - what about footpaths? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176010 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:48:26 +0000 Morningsider 176010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>WC - Clark v Kato went right up to the House of Lords. You can find the judgement at:</p> <p><a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm</a></p> <p>In effect, car parks in England aren't generally considered to be roads.</p> <p>Much more straightforward in Scotland. Section 151 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 defines a road as "any way (other than a waterway) over which there is a public right of passage (by whatever means)" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-176006 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:14:07 +0000 Darkerside 176006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Childish snigger at "a car park is a pubic place".</p> <p>Sorry... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175995 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:16:13 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 175995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Tis an interesting one this.</p> <p>But one thing I was thinking about was this, <em>"bloke then said 'its no9t a public highway' so maybe same rules don't apply"</em></p> <p>However, according to an interpretation of s.192 of the RTA '88 (possibly in a case called Clarke v. Kato, though I've not found the specific extract yet - just a determination that a car park was not classified as a road) a car park is a 'pubic place', and the public enjoy the right of passage over a public place.</p> <p>So it 'might' be that if something is classified as a car park, then it is public, and you can't stop cycling.</p> <p>But if it's classified simply as private land.... In that instance the owner can permit or deny access as he sees fit, otherwise someone is committing trespass, and by putting signs up the owner is effectively revoking an implicit permission.</p> <p>The thing is, though, how do you enforce it? Trespass is, for the most part, a matter of tort - i.e. it's civil, rather than criminal, which means in order to enforce it you'd have to raise a court action to get an injunction to stop that single person from being able to cycle across the car park. Are they really going to do that?</p> <p>I'd be inclined to FOI what action is to be taken against a cyclist who cycles across the car park, and then bung it in the direction of the Cycling Silk! In fact, wonder if he's amenable to a tweet of this thread (even if I'll likely be told most of the above is wrong - my defence, this is English law, and as has been stated Scots Law is much simpler on this!).</p> <p>Oh, and the Multrees stooshie. It was a friend of mine basically manhandled out after taking a picture of an interesting shop window display (of shoes). So we organised a sort of photo flashmob. And wound up with more police than mobbers, most of whom were awfully nice middle-class types with big SLR cameras. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175994 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:03:29 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 175994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dave,if anyone was willing to go up to the Esplanade and ride around in the hope of someone stopping him so he could then mention the land access laws then surely it would be you? For full effect hide behind something on the bike and ride out just as a warden is walking by... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175989 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 18:31:13 +0000 Dave 175989@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you think Scotland is better, try cycling up to the castle esplanade. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175978 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:52:27 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 175978@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Finally enough I helped organise the Multrees stooshie...</p> <p>I've actually got done relevant info on this, but at home, so can update later, though Morningsider has covered most already. In theory the private landowner can control access, but depends a lot on what the 'formal action' is. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175975 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:01:50 +0000 Darkerside 175975@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Possible parallel: Glasgow CC trying to ban people from cycling on the grass in the parks a year ago with their new park management rules. </p> <p>I'd like to say that died due to masterful deployment of the LRA, but I suspect they just forgot to implement it... </p> <p><a href="http://www.darkerside.org/2014/01/glasgow-park-management-rules/" rel="nofollow">http://www.darkerside.org/2014/01/glasgow-park-management-rules/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175973 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:56:15 +0000 Darkerside 175973@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Land Reform Act is one of the best bits of living in Scotland.</p> <p>It's such a powerful, liberating piece of legislation. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175972 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:54:08 +0000 SRD 175972@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>thanks morningsider. i think i understand the scottish side, but not the english. </p> <p>i know which one i prefer anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175971 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:45:40 +0000 Morningsider 175971@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SRD - no. Scottish access rights simply apply to land, regardless of who owns it. However, there are concerns about the increasing privatisation of public space, particularly in England where there are very limited access rights. Few people realise that fairly large chunks of areas such as London Docklands are private space and the landowners can effectively bar you from entering (check out the fact that there is no Google streetview of the area around Canary Wharf).</p> <p>The closest Scottish example I can think off is Multrees Walk, where there was a stooshie about taking photographs a few years ago. The dispute being over whether it was a public or private space. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175970 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:36:11 +0000 SRD 175970@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>thanks morningsider. </p> <p>I guess I was assuming that it was public space if a council car park ? do access regs change if a private company is running it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175969 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:32:30 +0000 Morningsider 175969@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Private car parks are a bit of a law unto themselves. Their operation is generally governed by contract law, rather than road traffic law. The terms of the contract are normally assumed to be the terms and conditions set out on the signs posted around the car park. Using the car park is deemed to be seen as you agreeing to those terms.</p> <p>Thing is, enforcement of these terms and conditions lies with the car park owner (or operator appointed by the owner - often seen wearing Stetson). How this particular contract term could ever be enforced is difficult to imagine. The owner/operator would have to seek payment/damages for someone cycling in a private car park - clearly nonsensical.</p> <p>I imagine Land Reform Act access rights would prevent this ever happening in Scotland, as cyclists can exercise responsible access rights over most private land - even if the owner doesn't like it.</p> <p>WC will know more contract law than me - he should be able to elaborate. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175966 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:24:10 +0000 Arellcat 175966@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So it's safer (or, 'safer') to walk in a car park than to cycle in a car park? Are pedestrians required to use the designated footways? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175965 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:20:14 +0000 Roibeard 175965@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I doubt I'd be complying with a "no cycling in the car park" ruling...</p> <p>Or I'd comply perfectly, by dismounting and ambling along the "carriageway".</p> <p>Robert the Obstreperous </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14118#post-175964 Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:11:42 +0000 SRD 175964@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>so, over on FB, a guy's posted a picture of a sign that went up in an Essex county council carpark, asking cyclists to get off and walk to the cycle parking in the middle of the car park " to avoid any near misses, accidents or disagreements between motorists using the car park, pedestrians and other cyclists". those who don't conform are told they will receive a 'warning' followed by 'more formal action'. </p> <p>My reaction was that this couldn't be legal, and that it certainly wouldn't be legal in scotland. bloke then said 'its no9t a public highway' so maybe same rules don't apply? </p> <p>anyone with some legal knowledge want to comment? </p>