http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Should the science festival have a climate change denier on its board? en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 00:41:47 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186561 Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:01:31 +0000 SRD 186561@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>His festschrift, cited in that article, was co-edited by my predecessor at Edinburgh, Chris Allen (also one of his students). </p> <p>The other co-editor, RW Johnson, may be familiar to the more erudite amongst you for his writings in the LRB. *</p> <p>Odd that the article doesn't mention that they were Quakers, which I think was very central to many aspects of their life and work.</p> <p>*occurs to me that that might suggest I consider myself amongst said erudite folk, whereas in reality I avoid his writing like the plague... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186560 Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:54:30 +0000 fimm 186560@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Decided to google Dorothy Hodgkin's husband who turns out to be "an English Marxist historian of Africa" hence SRD knowing more about him than his wife!</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lionel_Hodgkin" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lionel_Hodgkin</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186553 Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:32:57 +0000 SRD 186553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>so glad you posted that. reassures me that my reaction to the BBC piece (i never met him, but was similarly baffled by the 'Tom'), was not out of whack. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186552 Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:28:05 +0000 fimm 186552@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@paddyirish interesting article, thank you.<br /> <em>"Maybe the BBC article didn't want the truth to get in the way of a good story."</em> The author of the article does acknowlege that the play is fiction, before going on to make (reasonable) objections to the way the characters were portrayed.</p> <p>Jo Peach was one of the Somerville tutors when I was there. The other (the crystallographer) was Margaret Adams. I don't recall her lecturing, though. </p> <p>(Mega thread drift...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186516 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:39:27 +0000 paddyirish 186516@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@srd, @fimm</p> <p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2014/aug/24/thatcher-and-hodgkin-a-personal-and-political-chemistry">A Hodgkin family member's take on this article and the play</a></p> <p>Maybe the BBC article didn't want the truth to get in the way of a good story. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186511 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:17:26 +0000 paddyirish 186511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm small world - I did Chemistry at St Hugh's. Jo Peach was the only Lecturer I remember from Somerville, though I tended to minimise all contact I had with the DP - Organic Chemistry and I did not get on... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186505 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:40:16 +0000 fimm 186505@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm not a fan of Thatcher's politics, but it happens that I read Chemistry at Somerville College Oxford, as she did. One of my tutors also did crystallography and herself was tutored by Dorothy Hodgkin. I don't talk much about Oxford, but I do find that connection to such a remarkable woman very cool.</p> <p>I have a biography of Hodgkin at home. I hadn't picked up that her husband was a significant person in his own right, though! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186502 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:13:53 +0000 kaputnik 186502@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Only one British Prime Minister has had a science degree</em></p> <p>I dont think any US president ever has had one either, although Clinton has a BSc in "foreign service", I'm not sure that counts and he went on to do PPE. Jimmy Carter learned nuclear engineering in the navy at college level but never got any formal qualification for it. Came in handy when Three Mile Island melted down on his shift. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186500 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:03:36 +0000 SRD 186500@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>thanks for the link @paddyirish I'd missed that. </p> <p>My parents were friends with some of Hodgkins' relatives (also physicists, as is my Dad), but I've always known more about her husband, who was my supervisor's supervisor. And an influential figure in his own right. </p> <p>I didn't know of her connection with Thatcher. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186498 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:51:15 +0000 mgj 186498@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thatcher's main contribution was as part of the team that invented soft scoop ice cream (adding air to the existing product to increase profits).</p> <p>And for those who want some alternative literature that looks at how difficult it is to package climate change into a realistic threat that can have action taken on it, can I recommend "The Kraken Wakes" by John Wyndham. Features rising sea levels (albeit caused by forces from the deep melting the ice caps). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186497 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:42:19 +0000 paddyirish 186497@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm</p> <p>and she didn't do much to forward the advancement of Science.</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28801302">Great story recently about her relationship with Dorothy Hodgkin</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186496 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:31:19 +0000 fimm 186496@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Only one British Prime Minister has had a science degree. I think this is an interesting and somewhat depressing statistic. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186495 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:16:43 +0000 chdot 186495@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Science is difficult"</p> <p>That depends what you mean by "difficult". </p> <p>Once up a time 'scientists' could 'know' 'everything' (even if they were unwilling to 'believe' every newfangled theory). </p> <p>Now there is so much more to know <em>about</em>/understand. </p> <p>English Literature was probably 'easy' if you mostly had to know/understand Shakespeare. </p> <p>Not trying to suggest there are 'science brains' and 'arts brains' but there are people who find the theory of dynamo lights 'difficult' and people who don't 'understand' novels... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186494 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:43:10 +0000 paddyirish 186494@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A stickman "Science is difficult. It doesn't have to be inaccessible."</p> <p>Agree...</p> <p>Was in the hell that is Livingston Outlet Centre at the weekend, but did run into a good science festival exhibition.</p> <p>Minipaddy sat on a turbo bike and cycled 360 m to light up lights on a board. The same amount of energy would have got her walking 60m and wouldn't have even started the car. (Micropaddy sat on the bike and rang the bell non-stop for 2 minutes)</p> <p>In terms of bananas, cycling 2.4km to school would have needed 1/10 of a banana to balance the calorific output, walking would have taken 3/4 of a banana and car would have taken 38 bananas.</p> <p>It is simplistic, but she'll remember those numbers. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186493 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:37:39 +0000 paddyirish 186493@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@greenroofer, and what would be the cost if you didn't cycle to work and had to fund an alternative and had to get mini and micro to school. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186492 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:33:28 +0000 dougal 186492@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Denialism is an industry that reuses the same tactics over and over regardless of topic - tobacco, alcohol, road safety, climate change, telecoms, whatever. The money ploughed into dissembling, obfuscating and getting the public "on message" is staggering and I'm surprised anyone should be in doubt about its mere existence. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186491 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:25:02 +0000 Stickman 186491@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"science as something inaccessible and difficult"</p> <p>Science <strong>is</strong> difficult. It doesn't have to be inaccessible. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186490 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:18:43 +0000 cb 186490@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Is it just me but something that really bugs me on University Challenge is that Paxman expects folk to know the obscurest things about classics and the arts but seems astonished and in awe when someone gets the simplest science question correct?"</p> <p>Yes! That annoys me too.<br /> He likes to show off his knowledge but he doesn't seem to clock that it means he is showing off his ignorance too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186489 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:12:51 +0000 Stickman 186489@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Climate change believer - we make economic savings"</p> <p>Not necessarily. </p> <p>(...and I realise that I'm coming over like a "denier" here; I'm not.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186488 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:10:58 +0000 Greenroofer 186488@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@paddyirish on the economic case for cycling to work, compared with bus pass...</p> <p>Initial outlay £16/month on C2W for three years<br /> ...then need to replace the bits on the bike that were rubbish<br /> ...then joined an online forum that opened my eyes to the <strong>need</strong> for another (folding bike)<br /> ...then continued C2W at £21/month for another three years to pay off this n+1<br /> ...then bought bits to replace the bits on bike 1 that had worn out in three years<br /> ...then bought bike-specific clothing to replace the bike-specific clothing that had worn out<br /> ...then bought bits to replace bits on bike 2 that had worn out in 1 year<br /> ...then bought an Islabike for offspring because of an online forum that opened my eyes to those<br /> ...then bought subscription to a magazine about bicycles<br /> ...then started buying PoP T-shirts for all the family</p> <p>It's a very slippery slope this, and at present the econmic arguements aren't all that robust for me. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703&page=2#post-186487 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:09:51 +0000 paddyirish 186487@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the things that irks me about the establishment is this view of science as something inaccessible and difficult.</p> <p>Is it just me but something that really bugs me on University Challenge is that Paxman expects folk to know the obscurest things about classics and the arts but seems astonished and in awe when someone gets the simplest science question correct?</p> <p>If one of our pre-eminent political interviewers is<br /> so much in the dark and fails to ask probing questions.</p> <p>other questions I would love to see in any "scientific" interview</p> <p>- Which organisations have funded your work? ("Aah Shell- they must be delighted that you have found that fossil fuels don't contribute to climate change")</p> <p>- Supposing the unthinkable happens and you are wrong in your predictions/recommendations, what is the worst that could happen?</p> <p>Climate change believer - we make economic savings<br /> Climate change denier - ??? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186485 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:53:41 +0000 wingpig 186485@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The same bits of the brain which allow cognitive dissonances to flourish, fail to correctly comprehend probabilities and permit their owners to theorise conspiratorially are probably disturbingly capable of concurrently being unconvinced of anthropogenic climate change but reckoning that even if it is real it won't be as bad as they're saying and anyway surely they wouldn't let that happen? Wouldn't they? Same as surely no-one would build loads of houses on a flood plain if there was any real risk of it actually, like, flooding? No? </p> <p>One of the most important things properly-instilled reasoning can help people cope with is the ability to comprehend just how big big things (planets, stars, geological timescales etc.) are, if the frequent exhibitions of the <strike>laws</strike> <strike>rules</strike> <strike>guidelines</strike> way-things-happen of physics pummelling the crap out of engineering and economics are insufficient. Some of the thought processes behind anthropogenic climate change skepticism (at least concerning the severity and risk) seem to conclude along the lines of "if people did it, people can fix it, especially with modern technology", which fails to properly compare things like the massively different timescales of fossil fuel creation and fossil fuel combustion.</p> <p>In museums and books and popular science festivals there's a dangerous conflation of "science" and "shiny technology", which can over-focus on our species' sciency-technical abilities in whizzy-bangy applications such as putting people on moons or building huge dams across rivers, at the expense of explaining how the underlying understanding of how things work has been/is being gained. An upshot is that the people waving the magical shiny technology-stick get more airtime/credence than the people waving (or writing) the books. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186484 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:50:24 +0000 Darkerside 186484@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Guardian's style guide (other opinions are available, but this one is consistently entertaining) has a handy entry:</p> <p><strong>climate change terminology</strong></p> <p>A sensitive area. The editor of the Guardian's environment website says: "Climate change deniers has nasty connotations with Holocaust denial and tends to polarise debate. On the other hand there are some who are literally in denial about the evidence."</p> <p>Our guidelines are:</p> <p>Rather than opening itself to the charge of denigrating people for their beliefs, a fair newspaper should always try to address what it is that people are sceptical about or deny.</p> <p>The term sceptics covers those who argue that climate change is exaggerated, or not caused by human activity.</p> <p>If someone really does claim that climate change is not happening – that the world is not warming – then it seems fair enough to call them a denier </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186483 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:42:30 +0000 Stickman 186483@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Do any politicians understand economics?"</p> <p>Yes, but they don't tend to stay in politics very long, or if they do are kept well out of trouble on the back benches. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186479 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:34:35 +0000 crowriver 186479@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Science Festival no stranger to controversy. Back in 1992 I was helping them out with a multimedia exhibition on the High St, installing Windows 3 on some old PCs (I know, I know...). Major sponsor of the Science Festival that year (and a few others IIRC)? British Nuclear Fuels Limited. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186477 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:29:58 +0000 paddyirish 186477@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Back on cycling, the economic case of deciding to cycle to work:<br /> for an initial outlay of £x,<br /> you will break even in y months<br /> and save £z per year after that </p> <p>backed up by case studies as @Claire is doing at the minute, can be used for persuading people to cycle to work.</p> <p>A lot of people will repond to the pressure on their pocket and be converted to the cycling movement by stealth. </p> <p>Next step world domination *<em>practises evil laugh</em>* </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186475 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:23:01 +0000 paddyirish 186475@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I guess it is down to getting people to do what you want them to do and pushing whatever buttons </p> <p>The main argument in elections is "vote for me because we (are not/will not let in*) the other lot"</p> <p>Meaning "I don't care whether you vote for me because you agree with me or because we are less useless than the other lot, one vote is still one vote..."</p> <p>Still believe that the economic arguments for "going green" are unanswerable, even in the case that climate change is found out to be less than is currently thought. If the extent of climate change is equal to or greater than currently thought, the economic case is even more bulletproof. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186474 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:20:00 +0000 amir 186474@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Do any politicians understand economics? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186472 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:12:35 +0000 Stickman 186472@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"... the Green movement doesn't push this in economic terms rather than environmental"</p> <p>Possibly because a lot of the Green movement doesn't understand economics. A lot of their views and attitudes exhibit the kind of thinking that could be labelled as "economics deniers". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14703#post-186471 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:01:01 +0000 amir 186471@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I guess it's because it's difficult to understand the emphasis on economics when the consequences of climate change could be much more catastrophic. It's like worrying about whether your insurance is up-to-date when you're just about to crash your car. </p>