http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: The essential antagonism of Primary Position en Mon, 01 Jun 2026 00:42:19 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881&page=2#post-189693 Fri, 29 May 2015 14:32:04 +0000 sallyhinch 189693@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was told by a British guy living in Copenhagen that it's a very stressful place to drive because you can never turn right because of all the bikes ... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881&page=2#post-189683 Fri, 29 May 2015 13:42:05 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189683@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"If you pass then stop and have a proper look you can then just turn when it is clear."</p> <p>True, and I suspect that's part of it, but in a number of cases the driver had looooads of time (in the British road sense) to turn in before I got there. And even before anyone who might have come barrelling past me. Hard to explain how oddly disconcerting it was at first! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881&page=2#post-189681 Fri, 29 May 2015 13:35:09 +0000 Min 189681@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>This, I guess, is what I'd count as 'nice', and certainly appeared to be the norm over there.</em></p> <p>I reckon this makes sense in a place with a lot of cyclists. If you were to wait behind then more cyclists could be piling up behind/alongside you, possibly in a blind spot. If you pass then stop and have a proper look you can then just turn when it is clear. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881&page=2#post-189677 Fri, 29 May 2015 13:23:23 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189677@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Interesting that there's the idea that "people are nicer over there"."</p> <p>Possibly applies to urban cycling more. I found Copenhagen to be the most relaxed cycling imaginable. Yes there were a lot of segregated routes, but also a lot that weren't, and obviously junctions to cross. On numerous occasions I was passed by a car then indicating to turn in ahead of me - even the ones that could have turned without any allegation of a left hook then stopped to wait for me to pass the junction. This, I guess, is what I'd count as 'nice', and certainly appeared to be the norm over there.</p> <p>I found the same attitude of drivers in Paris of all places.</p> <p>Amsterdam was more mixed. Lots of close passing on the shared areas, and even saw a moped rider effectively shove a cyclist out of the way to squeeze between him and a bus.</p> <p>People most certainly are people everywhere, but I still think that overall in the UK there's a bit <em>more</em> of a me me me attitude of drivers than there is in Denmark (or the Netherlands, or France, or Italy). Nowhere will be perfect, as your experience shows, but lots of places will be <em>better</em>, and aiming for better (rather than an unachievable perfection) will always contain a certain element of changing driving attitudes <em>as well as</em> decent infrastructure (unless we have a segregated lane beside every single road in the country, with little bridges over junctions). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881&page=2#post-189663 Fri, 29 May 2015 12:11:40 +0000 chdot 189663@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Norway (although possibly not a cycling country)"</p> <p>"</p> <p>Norway in some ways isn't the best country for general cycle touring, due to it's mountainous terrain and long road tunnels (see Tunnels below). Having said that Norway has given us several of the best and spectacular tours that we have completed so far. If you pick your routes carefully and use the trains and ferries well you can put together a good tour and be rewarded for your hard work with leg muscles like tug boats and some spectacular scenery and stunning views to savour for a long time to come.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.cycletourer.co.uk/cycletouring/norway.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.cycletourer.co.uk/cycletouring/norway.shtml</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189662 Fri, 29 May 2015 11:57:03 +0000 Roibeard 189662@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting that there's the idea that "people are nicer over there".</p> <p>I can't say we noticed it in Denmark - on a twisting, country A road without parallel cycle infrastructure, we endured close passes, hooting, shouting out of windows and gesticulation.</p> <p>Fortunately we're used to that as a family...</p> <p>I think people are people all over, and thus we need to engineer out the risks of stupidity, carelessness, distraction and aggression.</p> <p>Norway (although possibly not a cycling country) has the same issues as us:</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vb0S3W6yOs" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vb0S3W6yOs</a></p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189647 Fri, 29 May 2015 10:34:02 +0000 chdot 189647@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189644 Fri, 29 May 2015 10:23:45 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189644@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Good grief, he (and therefore I) couldn't have been more wrong. Hmmm. I suspect he started out cycling in the 'dam <em>after</em> the initial change had been made. Looks like it mirrors what happened in Denmark - they went about it a bit differently (and I prefer the Danish model, didn't find Amsterdam cycling relaxing at all!). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189642 Fri, 29 May 2015 10:16:42 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189642@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Fair point, I was going off what someone from Amsterdam told me of his time growing up there in the 70s, but Google says different.</p> <p>I still maintain there's not a 'single approach solves everything' solution. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189640 Fri, 29 May 2015 09:46:29 +0000 fimm 189640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Not so much in the Netherlands where the infrastructure just followed the fact that so many Dutch already cycled. They maintained that culture right the way through...</em>"</p> <p>That's not my understanding of the history - I understood that cycling was declining and road conditions were getting worse (i.e. more car dominated) but campaigns in the 1970s managed to get the start of the construction of the cycle paths and the more they built the 3-space system the more it became apparent that that was a good thing to do so they built more of it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189638 Fri, 29 May 2015 09:41:39 +0000 geordiefatbloke 189638@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm with @rust on this. It's like having kids. You can child-proof your house, but you've still got to teach them not to stick their fingers in the sockets for when you visit your childless friends house. Same goes for drivers :)</p> <p>As @Wilmington's Cow said, a multi-layered approach is needed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189635 Fri, 29 May 2015 09:13:05 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189635@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Certainly true, to an extent, in Copenhagen, which was car-centric before they sarted turning it around in the late 70s - though not 'just' infrastructure per se, also things like the green wave, and street layout that wasn't intended to separate cyclists or make it safer, but rather make the car more inconvenient, which then got people onto bikes etc etc.</p> <p>Not so much in the Netherlands where the infrastructure just followed the fact that so many Dutch already cycled. They maintained that culture right the way through in spite of a lack of segregated lanes and so on - so the tolerance was already there <em>then</em> they thought, why not make it even easier since so many already cycle. And again a lot of the encouragement to cycle isn't necessarily in safety infrastructure, but in the likes of the massive conveniently placed bike parks that sit closer to the railway stations (for example) than car parking.</p> <p>So many shades of grey as to why there are so many cyclists, can't be put down to one cause, and the primary causes will be different in different locations.</p> <p>What IS clear is that in the UK both the safety infrastructure, the 'other' infrastructure (I mean, bike parking on George Street is abysmal), and driver culture, ALL has to change. Some will feed the others, but there's an interplay to it all, which is generally why trying only one and expecting it to be the magic bullet never works. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189621 Thu, 28 May 2015 22:31:08 +0000 neddie 189621@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Drivers in continental Europe are more tolerant because they are more likely to be cyclists themselves.</p> <p>Why are they more likely to be cyclists? Because they built the protected infrastructure to encourage them to be cyclists in the first place.</p> <p>A virtuous cycle. (no pun intended) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189611 Thu, 28 May 2015 20:51:40 +0000 stiltskin 189611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Whilst I accept that engineering out conflict can help, my experience of cycling abroad is that it doesn't matter how badly designed the roads are, the drivers are, on the whole, far more polite and tolerant of cyclists. It's an attitude, not the result of an engineering solution. The idea that a cyclist at a pinch point is, 'holding up' a car and has no right to be there, does not seem to exist. Drivers share the road, but apparently do not want to <strong>compete</strong> with cyclists. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189608 Thu, 28 May 2015 20:23:25 +0000 wee folding bike 189608@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Anger is an energy (as someone once said)<br /> </em></p> <p>You're not going to get high marks in a science test.</p> <p>I was in Edinburgh on Saturday. Boys enjoyed getting there by train as their mum had taken the working car to Ireland. They weren't entirely convinced that the Mound was man made.</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mound" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mound</a></p> <p>I wouldn't have been easy to spot, Ray Bans and a Kangol Trilby but no Brompton. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189606 Thu, 28 May 2015 19:13:10 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 189606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's a combination of the two though really isn't it?</p> <p>If road design separates traffic forms there's no trouble;<br /> If everyone using the roads (cyclists, drivers, etc.) acts with common sense and respectfully in shared space there's no problem.</p> <p>If the road puts the forms together AND people act disrespectfully to each other there's a problem.</p> <p>All that said, I'd say designing roads to separate users is probably easier than changing years of ingrained belief; though at the same time you simply cannot, practically, have a segregated cycle lane by every single road in the country, so people have to share the roads at some point, and that being the case you ALSO need to work on that mutual respect.</p> <p>Go to Copenhagen, they've designed out the conflict AND the drivers are more respectful (as cycle lanes naturally have to cross junctions, and drivers, generally, wait for you to pass etc.).</p> <p>Ain't as black and white as 'cycle lanes solve everything'... (after all, we got a lovely segregated lane in the very centre of Edinburgh and it got constantly driven on...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189605 Thu, 28 May 2015 18:58:33 +0000 cc 189605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@rust when the road layout naturally guides cyclists and motor vehicles into separate areas of the road, or onto separate roads, there's no conflict between cyclists and drivists* simply because they're in different places. As it is, in this country we're usually expected to share (and thus compete for) the same bit of road space.</p> <p>When you have some spare time I recommend a read of <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/">aviewfromthecyclepath.com</a>. It's full of illustrated explanations of exactly how changing the road layout can alter behaviour dramatically.</p> <p> * (C) Kaputnik </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189603 Thu, 28 May 2015 16:59:12 +0000 Edinburgh Cycle Training 189603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>you're never going to get anywhere trying to rationalise a situation with a frustrated car driver who feels some sense of entitlement</p> <p>Truer than a true thing from truesville</p> <p>On Tuesday evening I hit a car - bumped into a car.</p> <p>I was just entering the ASL box on Princes Street, the light to Charlotte Street was red. just as I was positioning myself to the left, a car moved from being just inside the box, to wanting to move all the way to the ASL.</p> <p>Slow speed emergency stop. wee wobble. Wee fall into nearside wing.</p> <p>Immediately, the driver rolled down her nearside window and yelled "you hit me" </p> <p>She completely and utterly failed to grasp that I only hit her because she pulled in front of me into a space she wasn't entitled to occupy!</p> <p>I've lost some of the nice green paint off my metal bar end plugs. I think she lost a fair bit of blue paint from the wing of her previously shiny car.</p> <p>Strange that although she verbally blamed me for the collision, she made no attempt to get out and inspect the damage to her car. The noise would have told her there was damage! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189602 Thu, 28 May 2015 16:50:11 +0000 rust 189602@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"The conflict between road users is caused by the design of the road. It's inherent."</em></p> <p>I have to disagree. The conflict between road users is caused by certain road users feeling they have more rights to the road than others. I don't believe that is caused solely, or even significantly, by road design. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189599 Thu, 28 May 2015 16:21:12 +0000 cc 189599@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm - exactly. The conflict between road users is caused by the design of the road. It's inherent. To get rid of the conflict, we need the roads to be redesigned to comfortably accommodate us - so we can cycle without ever getting in the way of faster/heavier/more powerful vehicles.</p> <p>Everyone should of course feel free to use whatever legal route they want to, and more power to their elbow - err, thighs. Me, I can't be doing with all that anger and conflict. I'm for a quiet life (which is why I like cycling). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189574 Thu, 28 May 2015 14:01:36 +0000 chdot 189574@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"crazy perspective in those photos"</p> <p>Just a bit of zoom...</p> <p>Yep, the daily Mail van is just one of the hazards there! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189572 Thu, 28 May 2015 13:56:53 +0000 Morningsider 189572@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>chdot - crazy perspective in those photos. If it wasn't for the Royal Mail van I probably wouldn't have recognised where it was. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189570 Thu, 28 May 2015 13:47:25 +0000 fimm 189570@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thinking about it a bit more, I guess the "the impatient &lt;person&gt; can &lt;go away&gt;" attitude is a consequence of the way the roads are. If I could cycle from A to B without conflict with either drivers or pedestrians, of course I would. But I can't. In Holland I could (mostly) - I'd only come into "conflict" with other cyclists (they have bicycle jams there...). So I have the choice of obstreperousness or getting in a car... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189553 Thu, 28 May 2015 12:07:59 +0000 chdot 189553@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Of course hugging the gutter isn't that simple!</p> <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/tCZLkd"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8873/18140297106_589a512b86.jpg"></a></p> <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/toJvs3"><img src="https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7738/17978889418_7098a6c1ae.jpg"></a></p> <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/toGMN3"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8831/17978554178_d9456e7a62.jpg"></a></p> <p>Random pictures from yesterday. </p> <p>All (presumably) experienced and probably commuters (and coincidentally - but not entirely unrepresentatively - male).</p> <p>I don't think that 'here' we think 'that's the way things are (traffic), learn to deal with it', but things change slowly in 'the wider world'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189550 Thu, 28 May 2015 11:54:44 +0000 algo 189550@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have to agree with PS and earthowned here - you're never going to get anywhere trying to rationalise a situation with a frustrated car driver who feels some sense of entitlement. It doesn't matter that you cite for several sources and they only cite from their distorted view, they won't listen to you. </p> <p>If you get an opportunity to discuss such things away from the road environment, then that can potentially be productive but I have (almost) given up on trying to have reasoned conversations on the road - particularly around the time of an incident of some sort. </p> <p>I would continue to ride the way you know is correct, and do as edd1e_h says and try not to let the eejits get you down. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189547 Thu, 28 May 2015 11:50:24 +0000 chdot 189547@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"This post has been edited to comply with forum rules"</p> <p>Well done. </p> <p>Anger is an energy (as someone once said) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189545 Thu, 28 May 2015 11:48:36 +0000 fimm 189545@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, but some of us want to use our bikes to get from A to B as quickly and conveniently as possible. I'm not going to go the long way round just because some person thinks I'm holding them up: and they can go away.</p> <p>(This post has been edited to comply with forum rules.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189542 Thu, 28 May 2015 11:36:05 +0000 cc 189542@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I find it helps to avoid roads which are busy with traffic, i.e. most of them. I stick to known wide quiet roads and to offroad paths (which aren't busy with pedestrians).<br /> It's limiting, but means that I still get out on the bike most days and rarely come into conflict with anyone, so for me it's best in the long run. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189540 Thu, 28 May 2015 11:23:25 +0000 gibbo 189540@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The problem with primary position is that it goes against what's been drummed into everyone's head: that cyclists must be in the gutter unless about to immediately turn right.</p> <p>Remember that ASA ruling last year (?) where the ASA disapproved a cycling awareness ad party because the cyclist shown wasn't cycling in the gutter? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14881#post-189535 Thu, 28 May 2015 10:46:01 +0000 earthowned 189535@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Getting into an argument on the road with anybody is like playing <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pigeon+chess">Pigeon Chess</a>:</p> <p>"...it's rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory." </p>