http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Bike and Rail:- Spokes Public Meeting Monday 15 June en Wed, 13 May 2026 23:13:45 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-198091 Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:48:56 +0000 fimm 198091@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hope this thread is as good a thread to put this on as any:</p> <p>I had an interesting conversation with a ticket inspector on the train from Livingston North to Edinburgh yesterday afternoon. The train before the one I was on had been cancelled, and the train that was running had one of its three carriages closed. Result, a lot of people in the remaining two carriages (not very squashed, but rather busy). </p> <p>The ticket lady, however, was worrying about the fact that there were 13 bikes on the train when there are, according to her, not supposed to be more than 6. "For health and safety reasons" she said. When I asked her what these "heath and safety reasons" might be, she explained that too many bikes in the vestibules block the vestibules up, which would be a problem if you had to evacuate the train in an emergency. I can see that that makes sense.</p> <p>(I don't know what she was doing at Livi North to fail to notice all the bikes being piled on to the train...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-195013 Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:37:02 +0000 bruce_mcadam 195013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>they apparently already have, and intend to continue with, a policy of flexibility towards allowing additional bicycles in vestibules</blockquote></p> <p>Not on the Ed-Dunblane train I was on this morning. Three bikes boarded at Waverley. I think they all fitted on the rack. Guard ranted that only two bikes allowed. When the 3rd bike left at Ed Park, he refused entry to another cyclist, who I guess ended up being half an hour late for work.</p> <p>My folder was on the luggage rack. I think non-folder bike-rail commuters should subsidise me :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191262 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:37:44 +0000 kaputnik 191262@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em><u>04.50</u> departs Edinburgh, and (unofficially -as it is set down only) <u>05.48</u> from Glasgow Queen Street.</em></p> <p>To paraphrase Napoleon, as far as I'm concerned it might as well be on the moon! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191260 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:10:27 +0000 chdot 191260@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>TransformScotland presentation here -</p> <p><a href="http://transformscotland.org.uk/blog/2015/06/17/spokes-members-hear-interchange-message" rel="nofollow">http://transformscotland.org.uk/blog/2015/06/17/spokes-members-hear-interchange-message</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191129 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 09:08:49 +0000 Chug 191129@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Loathe as I am to disagree with Tulyar - sleeper timetable <em>appears</em> to say that 05:48 Queen St is pick up only.</p> <p><a href="https://www.sleeper.scot/2-news/115-london-euston-fort-william">Fort William Sleeper timetable</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191127 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:52:31 +0000 chdot 191127@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"(unofficially -as it is set down only)"</p> <p>Why??</p> <p>That would have to change before attracting tourists. </p> <p><a href="http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G99257/2015/06/17" rel="nofollow">http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G99257/2015/06/17</a></p> <p>(Not run by ScotRail anymore.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191126 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:47:13 +0000 chdot 191126@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"and what do these trains do at weekends?"</p> <p>And what do they do the rest of the week?</p> <p>Motherwell to Waverley empty, Fife Circle, back to Motherwell empty. </p> <p>Two trains, twice a day! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191124 Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:32:38 +0000 Tulyar 191124@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Guilty as charged (PS) will do something a bit longer later. I was thanked by Scotrail's public affairs officer who was discretely in the audience, and we had a conversation about developing the current forum along the same lines as Northern and Greater Anglia, with a secretariat that includes stakeholders - watch this space...</p> <p>Meantime remember that there is a van space train to/from Fort William 6 days/week 04.50 departs Edinburgh, and (unofficially -as it is set down only) 05.48 from Glasgow Queen Street.</p> <p>For the South HST's from Inverness &amp; Stirling EC, plus 1 Edinburgh-Plymouth each way (and a few others from XC).</p> <p>For Fife 2 x loco hauled commuter services (and what do these trains do at weekends?) </p> <p>Let's see if the Dutch pragmatism can work with a similar calvinist outlook in Scotland? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191115 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 17:38:56 +0000 chdot 191115@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"subject to Local Authority match funding"</p> <p>What?!</p> <p>Is SG/TS planning to give LAs extra money for this?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191111 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:43:39 +0000 Roibeard 191111@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For those who wish to retain their sanity, here's a fun titbit buried in the Bike &amp; Go info:</p> <p><em>The Franchisee shall also procure subject to Local Authority match funding, that accessible cycles including hand cycles, recumbent bikes and trikes shall be available for hire.</em></p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191106 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:52:41 +0000 Morningsider 191106@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The ScotRail franchise (Page 372) specifies the following bike storage requirement for the refurbished "scenic trains":</p> <p>"6.7 Bicycle Storage</p> <p>The Franchisee should ensure that the Rolling Stock shall include a Bicycle Storage Area with space for the storage of at least two bicycles in an area adjacent to an entrance vestibule."</p> <p>Details (abandon hope all who click here): <a href="http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/documents/tsc-basic-pages/Redacted%20Franchise%20Agreement%20-%20CU%20version.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/system/files/documents/tsc-basic-pages/Redacted%20Franchise%20Agreement%20-%20CU%20version.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973&page=2#post-191103 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:59:49 +0000 Min 191103@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>they would like to minimise numbers of bicycles that are taken on trains;</em></p> <p>Perhaps they should offer a hefty commuter discount on their "bike and go"? Perhaps even free with a season ticket. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191102 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:50:58 +0000 chdot 191102@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Steam trains whilst fun for tourists, train geeks and romantics, may prove just a little bit irritating for folk wanting a functional, frequent service from Tweedbank."</p> <p>True, but I thought that was 'part of the plan' - or is that just 'opening week'? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191101 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:47:55 +0000 PS 191101@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"I seem to recall something about "Scenic Trains" having extra space for luggage/bikes"</p> <p>Yes, the steam hauled ones will presumably use 'old style' coaches and may include a guard's van.<br /> </em></p> <p>No, the Scenic Trains are going to be refurbed 158s, with all sorts of tourist-friendly features.</p> <p><a href="http://www.abellio.com/news/abellio-awarded-contract-operate-scotlands-national-railway-scotrail">See here</a><br /> <blockquote>Working with partners to attract international attention to the scenic beauty of Scotland’s railways with major upgrades to Scotland’s scenic trains to enhance the tourist experience:<br /> •Specially refurbished trains to align seats with windows<br /> •More luggage, cycle and ski storage<br /> •Additional service to Oban in peak season<br /> •A Tourist Ambassador and improved on board catering that showcases local Scottish produce<br /> •Special events in the low season to attract customers<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>Steam trains whilst fun for tourists, train geeks and romantics, may prove just a little bit irritating for folk wanting a functional, frequent service from Tweedbank. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191100 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:39:58 +0000 jdanielp 191100@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One positive response to a question from the audience last night was that Abellio Scotrail are working to include bicycle reservations as part of the online booking process, but no time frame was mentioned.</p> <p>Some specific points about Abellio Scotrail that I took away from the meeting were:<ul><li>they can only guarantee two 'official' bicycle spaces per train, but hope to be able to offer more on some routes (but not the Borders line);</li><li>they apparently already have, and intend to continue with, a policy of flexibility towards allowing additional bicycles in vestibules so it is maybe worth arguing the point with train guards;</li><li>they would like to minimise numbers of bicycles that are taken on trains;</li><li>they plan to increase bicycle provision (hire/parking/support) at stations, while not increasing the vehicle parking.</li></ul></p> <p>Some general presentation points that I took away from the meeting were:<ul><li>set up any technology (e.g. radio mics/slideshow clickers) in advance;</li><li>try to do some basic research about your company before talking or fielding questions about it;</li><li>do not cram far too much information into slides.</li></ul> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191088 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:49:16 +0000 kaputnik 191088@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That looks like a non-scenic 158, which currently has no pony stabling area. Just a pony cupboard*.</p> <p>* you can't actually fit a pony in this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191085 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:35:44 +0000 chdot 191085@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/18/horse-carriage-man-tries-board-train-pony" rel="nofollow">http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/18/horse-carriage-man-tries-board-train-pony</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191084 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:33:43 +0000 chdot 191084@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I seem to recall something about "Scenic Trains" having extra space for luggage/bikes"</p> <p>Yes, the steam hauled ones will presumably use 'old style' coaches and may include a guard's van. </p> <p>But presumably higher fares too?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191083 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:33:37 +0000 Rosie 191083@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I booked a train to Peterborough. The staff were very attentive, bundling me &amp; the bike on &amp; off the guard's van so that the train wouldn't be held up. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191082 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:31:42 +0000 Rosie 191082@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I suppose time was when people travelled with trunks in the guards vans and bicycles - even horses in earlier times - even coffins - that people expected some delay loading and unloading at stations. There were probably more staff to handle it - people like "porters". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191079 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:30:13 +0000 PS 191079@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Unless you build one that can i.e. a driving trailer... But then this adds costs and complexity to what is meant to be something cheap and simple.<br /> </em></p> <p>And takes up space for what could otherwise be passengers' seats. Another performance measure is for how many/how long passengers have to stand in the peak. They don't like that at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191078 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:27:30 +0000 PS 191078@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On the Borders train - it's still not clear what the bike carrying capacity on the refurbished 158s will be from what Des Bradley was saying. </p> <p>I may have dreamt it when reading all the "here's what Abellio are going to do" bumf put out when they were unveiled as winners of the franchise, but I seem to recall something about Abellio using "Scenic Trains" on the Borders Railway. And I seem to recall something about "Scenic Trains" having extra space for luggage/bikes (although I could be wrong).</p> <p>I suppose it's quite possible that they haven't finalised the spec of the refurbed train, so don't feel they can confirm what the capacity will be yet, but you'd have thought they could give an indication of intent at least. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191077 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:23:37 +0000 kaputnik 191077@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Your couldn't do that with a bike/cargo carriage at one end.</em></p> <p>Unless you build one that can i.e. a driving trailer... But then this adds costs and complexity to what is meant to be something cheap and simple. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191076 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:21:12 +0000 PS 191076@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>... but railway folks will probably take great pains to tell you just how difficult and impractical it would be.</em></p> <p>Possible reasons I can think of:</p> <p>The additional time it would take passengers to go and get their bike from the extra carriage upon reaching their destination. The railways are congested and the coordination of trains in and out of stations like Waverley can be a nightmare. Passengers value on-time services, so performance against timetable is measured and delays cost money to the operator, even more so if they cause knock-on disruption to other services. Anything that delays departures is therefore a Bad Thing. Possibly less of an issue on long distance routes, but certainly a problem on suburban/commuter services.</p> <p>Operationally, an advantage of the multiple units is that when they reach their terminus they can just head off back the way without any need to hitch up a new power unit at the front. Your couldn't do that with a bike/cargo carriage at one end.</p> <p>There'll be some safety reason why an easy to use carriage won't be allowed, or need to put through a lot of hoops and be made super secure before it could be used. That'll cost you.</p> <p>Added wear and tear of these carriages on the track will cost you as well. As will staff and associated training to monitor/operate it.</p> <p>On high-capacity routes, there may not be adequate platform length to allow an extra carriage. It'll cost you to extend every platform on those routes.</p> <p>I'm sure there'll be more reasons. </p> <p>I suspect an easier approach is a larger flexible space on every train. although passengers do not like sitting on foldy-up seats. It'll only come if Scottish Ministers/Transport Scotland tell Abellio that they should do that. That will cost you, which means it is only likely to happen if there is too much demand/political pressure to ignore. Or Ministers decide that it's a Good Thing to do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191072 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:03:28 +0000 Rosie 191072@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks kaputnik. </p> <p>Fimm - yes, a Borders round trip is too much for my level of fitness. I looked forward to doing a one-way trip, but can't see it happening with that limited no of spaces. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191071 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:58:24 +0000 chdot 191071@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I don't see that being an easy thing to do"</p> <p>Will depend on how flexible they become about letting bikes on on late Sunday afternoons! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191070 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:58:07 +0000 kaputnik 191070@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em> I don't know enough about train design but couldn't some basic wagon be attached for cycles and luggage - not even a guard's van but something that you left your stuff in at your own risk. I can see that would slow the train down at stops but that would probably only affect favourite touring routes eg Pitlochry which is busy with bikes. Someone was saying there are very casual looking wagons in Czechoslovakia.</em></p> <p>It seems to be the logical idea, doesn't it, but railway folks will probably take great pains to tell you just how difficult and impractical it would be.</p> <p>It would have been very easy in the olden days of "loco hauled" services (that is, traditional engine at one end pulling a rake of carriages) to just tag on extra carriages to meet demand, sidings at major stations would always have kept reserve empty stock for various eventualities. These included "brake" wagons which invariably had ample storage for outsized passenger luggage, including bicycles. The railways even used to keep special carriages for the transportation and release of racing pigeons, amongst other things!</p> <p>Alas, it's just not practical with fixed sets of "multiple units" to do this. Occasionally there are programmes to re-engineer these consists to add extra cars or spliut larger units into smaller, but these are slow, expensive and technical exercises. Ironically, one of the early attractions in bringing in multiple units was their flexibility and cost efficiency. But technology has caught up with them and they are now both very expensive things to procure and relatively inflexible in service when it comes to reconfiguring them. The most an operator can do is either add another unit on the back if stock availability and platform length allows (which given it doubles passenger capacity at the same time doesn't make the best use of their assets), or undergo slow and expensive internal reconfigurations to add for a few extra bike spaces.</p> <p>I've often thought that the most rural/touristy of services, e.g. Far North lines, West Highland lines would benefit from turning the clock back to days of proper carriages and trains with proper luggage space and proper buffets and big windows with ample, well-aligned seats. It's not just nostalgia, to my mind it's a practical and attractive sort of stock to use for both operator and passengers. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191069 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:45:44 +0000 fimm 191069@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, there's going to come a point where we are going to have to change the way we do bikes on trains (if cycling keeps increasing, that is). </p> <p>I'd love to use the Borders railway to do a loop from say Peebles or wherever, or just get out of Edinburgh a bit, but at the moment I don't see that being an easy thing to do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191066 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:23:59 +0000 chdot 191066@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Meeting photos</p> <p><a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/sets/72157652312188173" rel="nofollow">https://www.flickr.com/photos/chdot/sets/72157652312188173</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14973#post-191058 Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:25:53 +0000 Rosie 191058@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>About paying for your bike on a train - I'd be okay about that - say £5 or £10 or a percentage of the ticket as you are taking space. Also, that might mean there could be fewer no shows, people booking and not turning up, thus giving the impression that the cycle space is booked. I'm thinking here of touring and leisure, not commuting.</p> <p>There did seem to be an attitude that you absolutely HAD to be allowed on a train even at peak times and unbooked. You don't expect that when catching an aeroplane or a long-distance coach and even LRT buses can say "No more room." Trains are not infinitely flexible.</p> <p>I have seen the tiered caches of bikes in Belgium, where commuters are leaving their cycle (probably an old banger) at one end and then picking up another at the other end. There was resistance to that idea. </p> <p> "I've dropped a load of cash on my perfect bike, so it is my inalienable right to take it with me everywhere." If we want mass cycling fully integrated with public transport we really do need to loosen up a bit." - Agree.</p> <p>I think Abellio's plans are at least going in the right direction. I don't know enough about train design but couldn't some basic wagon be attached for cycles and luggage - not even a guard's van but something that you left your stuff in at your own risk. I can see that would slow the train down at stops but that would probably only affect favourite touring routes eg Pitlochry which is busy with bikes. Someone was saying there are very casual looking wagons in Czechoslovakia.</p> <p>The flexible foldable seats sounded like a good idea and I would have thought made marketing and economic sense. Families, cyclists go after the peak times. You have outside of peak time on the Underground for cyclists. </p>