http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Priority over Side Roads en Tue, 19 May 2026 01:30:36 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-196016 Sat, 15 Aug 2015 10:21:09 +0000 sallyhinch 196016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Meanwhile in London </p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/631873366165725184">Continuous pavement and cycle track at Oval</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-196003 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:02:00 +0000 HankChief 196003@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I ran into the same problem on the A8 cycle path and the entrance to half a dozen houses taking precedence over the main cycle path on from the West - with poor sight lines 'solved' by putting give way signs on the cycle path so far back you can't see cars approaching - and no change or even a warning sign to the side road.</p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10194">Previous thread</a></p> <p>In that case the count of differing vehicle movements must be in favour of the cyclists, but still because the cycle path dips down to the side road it has priority and I was told only a change in the law would allow them to change it (which I think is a bit of an overstatement).</p> <p>The optimist in me is a tiny bit hopeful that when we get to the see the plans for the £300k of junction improvement to the A8 cycle path this financial year, CEC will be doing something here. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-195999 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:20:55 +0000 Kim 195999@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If only there was somewhere we could point to where an off road cycle path was given priority over side road on a raised ramp, maybe something like this</p> <p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9413316,-3.1832281,3a,75y,146.91h,87.44t/data=" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9413316,-3.1832281,3a,75y,146.91h,87.44t/data=</a>!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXJqgqAPdrYKh8FzH7Z0ZGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en</p> <p>somewhere in Edinburgh... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-195998 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:13:29 +0000 Kim 195998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When I first queried the Council Officers about why they couldn't have cycle lanes with have priority over side roads, they said it wasn't possible in Edinburgh... </p> <p><a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9484241,-3.2038364,3a,75y,278.63h,75.56t/data=" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9484241,-3.2038364,3a,75y,278.63h,75.56t/data=</a>!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX7IlnXYNdPsnSLSkE5kRYQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en</p> <p>But a quick look at the design guidelines shows that there are guidelines for giving cycle lanes and off road cycle paths priority over side roads (including putting them on raised pillows to make sure that vehicle are forced to slow down when turning) if the volume of cycle traffic is sufficient to justify doing so. Here we get to catch 22, the volume of cycle traffic will never reach the justified level, without the infrastructure.</p> <p>The real problem with Leith Walk is that the car is still considered king, even though the residents of Leith has some of the lowest level of car ownership in Scotland. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-195944 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:05:40 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 195944@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a wonderful photo of side road priority at Oval from Maidstoneonbike, <a href="https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/631873366165725184/photo/1" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/631873366165725184/photo/1</a> .</p> <p>This is exactly what we should demand for the minor side roads on Leith Walk. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191620 Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:32:46 +0000 chdot 191620@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>MOST relevant to this thread!</p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/shuggiet/status/613140663090212864" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/shuggiet/status/613140663090212864</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191615 Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:56:29 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 191615@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks all for the suggestions, I blogged <a href="http://unclekempez.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/side-road-priority-on-leith-walk.html">here</a> (nothing too profound, just reiterating that priority of cycle paths over side roads can be done (and has been done) in the UK). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191484 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 23:57:37 +0000 i 191484@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Duncan and @UtrectCyclist, the Freiburg example looks similar to the other flawed examples, similar to the <a href="https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/visual-priority/berlin-junction-with-poor-painted-bike-priority/">3rd picture</a>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191482 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 23:49:53 +0000 i 191482@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'll throw this <a href="https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/continuous-paths-across-minor-junctions/">link in too</a></p> <p>Since one of the design team were worried about wear and tear on a seamless pavement on side road, I started up this <a href="http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/node/3431">thread</a>. Basically you can use sturdy setts. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191444 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:54:25 +0000 ih 191444@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@darkerside Sure, no mention of 'leaning on horn' anywhere, but the key issue here is priority at non-light-controlled side roads, where there is a segregated cycle track running alongside the main road. Currently bikes would have no priority across side roads, but it doesn't have to be like that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191427 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 12:53:50 +0000 slowcoach 191427@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>ih: it might not be clear from the streetview but at the entry into the street, on the right in 1st view, the kerb continues over the side street so drivers/riders have to go over the kerb to get into the side street. the kerb across the footway is flush so doesn't disrupt the continuity much. Not a great example but it was the nearest I could remember to figure 7 from your link to the Cycling Embassy blog. The exit (on right in 2nd view) definitely suffers from the failings listed under fig 7: "(UK attempts at similar layouts often continue edge, centre or waiting restriction lines across the footway, undermining the effect)". I hope that's clearer now, and that others will have better examples to show us! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191425 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 12:48:01 +0000 Darkerside 191425@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But the rules for green traffic lights are "go when the way is clear, taking particular care regarding pedestrians who may still be crossing". (Liberal paraphrasing from memory...)</p> <p>Nowhere is "lean on horn whilst accelerating at the victim" mentioned. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191417 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 11:27:50 +0000 ih 191417@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@slowcoach Problem with this rule is that (a) no driver seems to be aware of it, (b) it only applies if the pedestdian is already on the crossing, and (c) it doesn't apply at light-controlled junctions.</p> <p>In situations under discussion here, what's required is crystal-clear visual information to drivers that they HAVE TO give priority to the cyclist on the cycle track. So that means absolute continuity of the cycle track in terms of height, colour, surface texture etc. The kerb should NOT continue round the corner (which gives drivers the visual idea that they have priority) and cross the cycle track. There should be road markings for the driver making it clear they should give priority (Sally's link above shows how this can be done)</p> <p>@slowcoach I took a look at your St Andrews example. Not sure what it's demonstrating. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191408 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 10:47:28 +0000 slowcoach 191408@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Pedestrians <u>should </u>have the benefit of this from <a href="https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183">Highway Code Rule 170</a> "watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way". Not clear that this applies at signals too.</p> <p>Examples of different types of engineering treatment (for pedestrians, not cyclists) at different ends of South Castle Street, St Andrews: <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/eHCem">entry</a> quite good and<br /> <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/pVdt6">exit</a> quite bad. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191392 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 09:50:36 +0000 Darkerside 191392@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oddly, that come up at the (softly, softly) launch of Glasgow Space4Cycling earlier in the week. In ensuring drivers never have to "unexpectedly" give way, we encourage lower awareness and a general sense of priority.</p> <p>There's probably comparisons with removing street signs/road markings to make people think harder whilst driving... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191377 Fri, 19 Jun 2015 08:46:23 +0000 fimm 191377@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Oh, of course. I kind of knew that. </p> <p>It is unfortunate in a way that we don't have that here, as it would mean that drivers would be used to giving way when turning left. </p> <p>On the other hand, the British way means that if you have a green man you can definitely cross without worrying (too much! you should always check...) about whether traffic is going to give way to you as it should. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191369 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:54:56 +0000 douglaswaring 191369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's a pretty good example in Glasgow on Elderslie St - a 2-way segregated cycle lane next to a one-way street. See this link <a href="http://www.cyclestreets.net/location/62885/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cyclestreets.net/location/62885/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191365 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 22:40:56 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 191365@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks for the link Sally, that's really useful. And Duncan that Freiburg crossing looks superb! Very happy that we already have an example in Edinburgh too, I'll go and take a photo tomorrow morning.</p> <p>Fimm, in Holland and Germany you're allowed to give pedestrians a green man to cross the road at the same time as giving a green light to cars that want to turn across the pedestrian crossing. The cars give way because turning traffic gives way to traffic (pedestrians) who are going straight on. This means that at almost every junction in Holland turning traffic has to give way to bikes/peds.</p> <p>I think that in the UK this is a little more troublesome, if a pedestrian crossing has a green light you're not allowed to direct any other traffic across it, even if the other traffic has to give way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191357 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 21:35:59 +0000 ih 191357@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>You're right @irate; just been to check. The cycle track is unequivocally continuous across Buccleuch Terrace. The opposition would probably argue that this is just a minor cul-de-sac with hardly any traffic (a bit like cars crossing a pavement to get to a private parking area) but it sets a precedent so it can be done. Good spot @irate.</p> <p>AND, Sally's link above, repeated in this post, explains beautifully from a traffic engineer's point of view how priority across side roads can be implemented in this country perfectly legally, without worrying that priorities are different on the continent. It just needs the balls to decide to do it. <a href="http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads" rel="nofollow">http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191334 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:43:28 +0000 Iratesheep 191334@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Doesn't the new set up for the separated infrastructure along Buccleuch street give cyclists priority by Buccleuch terrace? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191325 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:47:30 +0000 paddyirish 191325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just about any side road on A8 shows how not to do it. Neither party can see the other until the last possible moment. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191322 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:03:38 +0000 duncans 191322@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Didn't seem to be a problem in Germany (Freiburg example):</p> <p><a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncansmith/15702440781"><br /> <img src="https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5605/15702440781_b89cbf6204_n.jpg"></a></p> <p>UK examples? Are there any? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191321 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:54:07 +0000 sallyhinch 191321@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A traffic engineer's view <a href="http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads" rel="nofollow">http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191319 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 15:44:00 +0000 fimm 191319@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>there are different laws about turning traffic there...</em>"<br /> Oh, really?<br /> What are the differences? Does this mean that simply cloning Dutch examples to the UK won't work? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15000#post-191310 Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:18:09 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 191310@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the big problems with the current Leith Walk plans is that the cycle lanes don't have priority over side roads. The reason isn't that the planners don't want to give priority, it's that they think it's not possible to do safely. Which is clearly not true, there are loads of examples from the UK and abroad. I'm looking to write a short blog post with 5-10 examples, preferably from the UK, of segregated bike lanes that have priority over side roads, just to prove that it's possible.</p> <p>I have two examples from <a href="https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/visual-priority/">this excellent article</a> which aren't particularly well done, but prove the point that with UK traffic laws its possible to have continuous cycleway across a side junction. Does anyone know of any others?</p> <p>I'm reluctant to use Dutch examples as there are different laws about turning traffic there, UK would be ideal. </p>