CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Turn right on red

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Turn right on red - Paris http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Turn right on red - Paris en Tue, 19 May 2026 04:12:27 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204645 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:21:30 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 204645@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I still think you are barking up the wrong tree. Case in point - have average speed cameras on the A9 (which I welcome) made urban cycling in Perth, Inverness or anywhere inbetween safer? I doubt it. Surely better for policing and education to focus on where law-breaking actually does demonstrably affect vulnerable groups? There have been past successes eg drink-driving, seatbelt wearing. neddie on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204641 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:49:49 +0000 neddie 204641@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Or put another way, if a driver sees the 70mph law as a law they can 'pick & choose' to ignore, then what other laws will they pick and choose to ignore? Or are the "over 70mph-ers" all driving "Gods" in every other respect? Murun Buchstansangur on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204624 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:33:49 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 204624@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Sorry eddie_h but that is simply not true. For a start, many of those I see guilty of RLJing, urban speeding, mobile usage & worse are in company vehicles with a speed limiter of 60mph or below. And many of those speeding on motorways are in expensive newish vehicles whose tyres & headlights are most likely sound (too sound for many judging by the lighting thread), which don't yet need an MOT, and I'm pretty sure they have no problem insuring said vehicle. I can't think of a course of action by traffic police less likely to stop cyclist & pedestrian KSIs than pursuing motorway speeders. A-roads, maybe. Urban enforcement, definitely. PS on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204623 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 15:31:04 +0000 PS 204623@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The drivers that exceed 70 on the motorway are the same ones that are likely to - have faulty headlights / tyres - have no insurance / MOT - jump reds - speed in town - use their mobile while driving - break the law in some other way (with regard to motoring) You catch the minor offences, the major ones will follow. I'm not sure that's all true, primarily because going above 70mph on a motorway is so acceptable to wider society that it is normalised. [Most over-70ers would, I am sure, be in full agreement that having no insurance / MOT is wrong and that folk should be done for that.] However, the problem it gives us is that it normalises the idea that speed limits are kinda advisory, so it's "okay" to do 35 in a 30, and maybe 48 in a 40. neddie on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204613 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:13:50 +0000 neddie 204613@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The drivers that exceed 70 on the motorway are the same ones that are likely to - have faulty headlights / tyres - have no insurance / MOT - jump reds - speed in town - use their mobile while driving - break the law in some other way (with regard to motoring) You catch the minor offences, the major ones will follow. chdot on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204610 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 14:00:18 +0000 chdot 204610@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Why waste finite polis effort on extremely low risk behaviours?" Now there's a bold statement... It's complicated. Of course the idea of "low risk behaviours" is open to debate (perhaps even 'facts'). "extremely low risk behaviours" more so! I think there is a general 'feeling' on here that there is not enough enforcement. The 'public view' that there is a "war on motorists" doesn't seem to be particularly true. Though that tends to be aimed at politicians more than the police. Clearly the police don't/can't have the resources to do "everything". People who get burgled expect to see a police car in minutes. But... Clearly there are "priorities" - even 'consultation on priorities'. No surprise that most people don't put "enforcing ASL encroachment" on their wishlist. But it's not just/really about stopping people breaking the law. It's partly about having 'sensible' laws, but more about getting people/politicians/police to see that some normal driving (and sometimes cycling) behaviour is actually dangerous - or at least potentially- to cyclists and pedestrians and is a real barrier to getting more people to walk and cycle. Charlethepar on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=3#post-204602 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:29:56 +0000 Charlethepar 204602@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @mmohara well, personally I think enforcing the 70 motorway limit is as much a waste of time and effort as stopping cyclists from turning left through a red light when its safe to do so. Why waste finite polis effort on extremely low risk behaviours? Nelly on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-204600 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:26:03 +0000 Nelly 204600@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "If you are cycling on the road then you are part of the traffic, you need to obey the lights......... bit biased on the forum perhaps" Not really. When I started this thread it was because a story was on the BBC about Paris considering allowing cyclists to turn right on Red (our equivalent of turn left on Red). There has already been healthy debate about this, and in general nobody is advocating breaking the law - rather debating if an easement/change for cyclists would be useful. mmaohara on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-204596 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:14:15 +0000 mmaohara 204596@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If you are cycling on the road then you are part of the traffic, you need to obey the lights. Interestingly I was just reading another thread about drivers being penalised for going over 70 on the motorway and the general just is - well don't break the law, bit biased on the forum perhaps? :-) Chug on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-204587 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:24:57 +0000 Chug 204587@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ ...but Sciennes Place is a great cut-through for cyclists heading from West Preston Street into Sciennes/Marchmont. The "straight on" route is still open for cycles, even if closed for cars. paulmilne on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-204584 Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:05:31 +0000 paulmilne 204584@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Good, I was looking for a "going through red lights" thread to post this link to a blog post by "As Easy As Riding A Bike": Traffic lights have to make sense <a href="https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/traffic-lights-have-to-make-sense/" rel="nofollow">https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/traffic-lights-have-to-make-sense/</a> One junction that comes to mind is West Preston Street and Causewayside, a t-junction where north-bound cyclists could easily continue on because there's no street on the left (Sciennes Place doesn't come through any more). Having said that, in my observation most cyclists are law-abiding and stop even when it doesn't make sense. acsimpson on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-197510 Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:25:41 +0000 acsimpson 197510@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://gizmodo.com/paris-will-ban-cars-for-one-day-1727332295">http://gizmodo.com/paris-will-ban-cars-for-one-day-1727332295</a> Also available via the grauniad. geordiefatbloke on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195996 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:36:45 +0000 geordiefatbloke 195996@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ And also, in 2012, of 25.9 million trips per day in London, 14 million were by car/bus/taxi, 0.5 million were by bike (source: [url=http://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/policy/Key%20statistics/Key-London-Statistics-Data-Sheet-V1-13-06-2014.pdf]Sustrans data), which would suggest that the number of cyclists injuring pedestrians by rlj-ing is proportionally very similar to that of motor vehicles. Given the comments about the difference in likelihood of serious injury from being hit by a car as compared to a bike, I would suggest that people actually being hit by rlj-ing bikes is proportionally much higher than that by cars. geordiefatbloke on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195984 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:05:33 +0000 geordiefatbloke 195984@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Charlethepar " just 4% of pedestrian injuries due to red light jumping involved cycles; the other 96% involved motor vehicles." So that makes it ok then? I'm sure the 4% hit by a bike would disagree (not to mention those hit/frightened by bike but not injured enough to report it, because as you rightly say if you're hit by a car serious injury is more likely). Here's a crazy idea. How about not rlj'ing, then that stat would be "100% involved motor vehicles". chdot on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195979 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:42:01 +0000 chdot 195979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I think some at Edinburgh Council level want to do the right thing but are afraid to." Yes BUT Unlike many parts of the world, cities in Scotland/UK can't do that sort of thing. Wilmington's Cow on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195978 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:36:04 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 195978@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "How can we change perceptions to bring them more in line with the facts?" That is the million dollar question. paulmilne on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195976 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:33:23 +0000 paulmilne 195976@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Interesting that in Paris the powers that be worked took the attitude that RLJ could be safe at certain intersections under certain conditions and simply changed the law to make it legal. I doubt motorists in Paris have a better attitude towards cyclists than in Edinburgh, but it took political will to make it happen. The question is, does that will exist here? I think some at Edinburgh Council level want to do the right thing but are afraid to. ih on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195973 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:21:32 +0000 ih 195973@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Wilmington I agree, it's perceptions, right or wrong, that matter. But perceptions can differ significantly. Anecdote, I accept not statistical. I cycle on a network in SE London, a bit like the NEPN. Amongst others, I pass parents with young kids enjoying the walk. There is never the panic that I see from Edinburgh parents shouting "mind the bike", scaring the bejeezus out of the kids, clutching them to their knees as though I'm actually going to aim for the children. How can we change perceptions to bring them more in line with the facts? Wilmington's Cow on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195961 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:17:43 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 195961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I doubt this fact is anywhere near the 'perceptions' that Wilmington's Cow is so worried about" OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Seriously, not what I meant in the slightest, not the point I was making, merely reflecting that there 'are' perceptions, and whether based on fact or myth they do exist, they will continue to exist, and it's against that mindset that any changes or suggestions have to be pitched. So while 'we' have a perception that RLJing is safe (in the main, gfb and others excepted), the little old lady (no, no problem with that) may/will have a different perception. Will cyclists continuing to RLJ change that perception? No. Will the facts mean that shell change her perception? Doubtful. Will her perception be taken into account by those who are actually looking at changing the law and asking their constituents what they think about it despite her perception not being based in fact? More than likely. Perceptions may be incorrect, but perceptions carry weight. Anyone who has read the comments on the EEN, or who has been told they don't pay road tax, or has been told ALL cyclists run reds and cycle on the pavement, will know this. And it's been said and levelled at us for years without going away. And those perceptions get mentioned in debates in parliament, or in responses to consultations suggesting improvements to the cyclists' lot, and on the basis of that we often get no, or compromised, provision. So yes, the perception is wrong. But the perception exists, and the perception carries weight, therefore to ignore it, or to simply say 'aye but that's wrong' is frankly naïve and blinkered. paulmilne on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195960 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:11:35 +0000 paulmilne 195960@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @mgj, oh well, Leith Street, very different class of cyclists there :D I've seen people biking through red lights, just not furiously. And my point is the vast majority *that I've seen* don't. Someone else also said they didn't push their bikes through lights because they weren't in a hurry. I don't do it necessarily because I'm in a hurry, but because it puts me just that little bit further ahead of the motor vehicles and gives me a few more seconds of relaxed cycling. mgj on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195958 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:07:13 +0000 mgj 195958@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Number of LOL's hit by RL left turners - small/miniscule. Number of LOL's hit by those waiting at red light - nil. Number of LOL's unnecessarily frightened by moving vehicle around them while crossing at a green man - the real issue. ih on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195941 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:57:38 +0000 ih 195941@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Perhaps I should have said that, if 100 hypothetical little old ladies crossed controlled junctions assuming that all vehicles keep the law, 96 of them would be taken out by motor vehicles (and would be much more likely to be killed than the 4 unlucky enough to be hit by a cycle)." If 100 hypothetical little old ladies etc.... I would expect the vast majority to get safely to the other side making the number hit by cycles vanishingly small. Does anyone else feel there is a problem with the phrase 'little old lady'? Charlethepar on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195938 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:44:31 +0000 Charlethepar 195938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @geordie Not infallible, but the great statistical likelihood is that a pedestrian gets taken out by a motor vehicle. The CTC reports that "Between 1998 and 2007 in London, where cycle and pedestrian flows are high and signalled junctions ubiquitous, just 4% of pedestrian injuries due to red light jumping involved cycles; the other 96% involved motor vehicles." I doubt this fact is anywhere near the 'perceptions' that Wilmington's Cow is so worried about. Perhaps I should have said that, if 100 hypothetical little old ladies crossed controlled junctions assuming that all vehicles keep the law, 96 of them would be taken out by motor vehicles (and would be much more likely to be killed than the 4 unlucky enough to be hit by a cycle). geordiefatbloke on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195914 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:40:11 +0000 geordiefatbloke 195914@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Charlethepar I think this is where we fundamentally disagree, I don't believe that what you describe as "common practice" actually is ... "And it won't be a cycle that takes them out." ... because they are, of course, infallible. Charlethepar on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195903 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:06:19 +0000 Charlethepar 195903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @geordiefatbloke Ah, but if the hypothetical little old lady is that savvy (and that willing to take risks on her own judgment), she will no doubt have observed that cyclists turning left in these circumstances is a common practice, and will have weighed it into her decision making. If anyone walks around town expecting vehicles to always keep to the law, there is no way they will live long enough to be a little old lady, hypothetical or otherwise. And it won't be a cycle that takes them out. geordiefatbloke on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195894 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:45:45 +0000 geordiefatbloke 195894@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Charlethepar But what if the little old lady has looked up and down the street where the lights are green, sees no traffic, then they are perfectly entitled to cross on a red man. But then out pops a cyclist going through a red light, which they weren't expecting (and why should they, vehicles aren't allowed to go through a red light). This is the point, just because you (as in a rlj-cyclist, not you personally Charle, I know you have not stated whether or not you do this) perceive what you are doing to be risk-free or risk-reducing, it is demonstrably not for everyone else, unless the laws change. Wilmington's Cow on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195887 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:22:32 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 195887@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I give up. Charlethepar on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195886 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:20:58 +0000 Charlethepar 195886@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @WC If we were slaves to other people's perceptions, we would not cycle at all in town - there is such a vibrant mythology about the evil deeds done by cyclists. Wilmington's Cow on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195881 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:13:41 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 195881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Sigh. Perceptions. Not specific junctions. Not specific little old ladies. Charlethepar on "Turn right on red - Paris" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15273&page=2#post-195878 Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:03:30 +0000 Charlethepar 195878@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ WC I am a bit worried about the safety of your hypothetical little old lady. We are talking about situations of controlled junctions, where cyclists are turning left (treating a red light stop line as a give way line) into a flow of traffic that is signalled at green. The pedestrians that they could potentially clash with are firmly signalled at red. Take the example of the end of Chambers Street. The traffic on the Bridges will be signalled on green both ways. If your hypothetical little old lady decides that is the moment to cross the road against a "red man", the fact that a cyclist may decide to turn left from Chambers Street through a red light will be the least of her problems. I doubt that a single little old lady has been hit by a bike for years, simply because if it happened just once the Scotsman would go on about it for months.