http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "George Street traffic changes: Have your say" en Thu, 21 May 2026 15:08:16 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-272315 Sat, 13 Jan 2018 11:48:33 +0000 chrisfl 272315@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>emai into info@:</p> <p>George Street and First New Town (GNT)</p> <p>Public Drop-In Event – January 15th &amp; 16th 2018</p> <p>The Council are holding public drop-in events on the Monday 15 (1pm-6pm) and Tuesday 16 (3pm – 8pm) January 2018 at the City Arts Centre (5th Floor), 2 Market Street, Edinburgh, and you are more than welcome to join us.</p> <p>These events will allow the public to have their say on the GNT draft design objectives that were presented to you during December’s workshop. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211317 Mon, 08 Feb 2016 11:09:53 +0000 PS 211317@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>EEN Commenters:<br /> "WE FEAR CHANGE." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211309 Mon, 08 Feb 2016 09:59:32 +0000 wingpig 211309@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Another comment being sad about the central decobbling, but the consultation revealed that they weren't original. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211308 Mon, 08 Feb 2016 09:47:12 +0000 chdot 211308@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ah the wisdom of EN commenters -</p> <p>"</p> <p>kaka30<br /> They will rue the day if they mess with George Street. Its got character and has had for hundreds of years, leave it alone, dont touch a thing.</p> <p>"</p> <p>Maybe it's irony. </p> <p>How can you tell on the Internet?? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211295 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 22:08:12 +0000 sallyhinch 211295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>An attempt to disentangle the many nuances of shared space here:</p> <p><a href="http://www.therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-myth-of-shared-space.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-myth-of-shared-space.html</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211289 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 20:44:04 +0000 chdot 211289@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, think there needs to a clear understanding (by CEC) of no bus routes (not just LB) or HGVs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211288 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 20:35:12 +0000 Klaxon 211288@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stephan, AFAIA there's no public plans yet, I was just speculating on how it <em>could</em> work based on the single illustration.</p> <p>Chdot; Can't say I'm a fan of anything bigger than a 3.5T van without kerbs and properly delimited lanes. The swept path on corners quickly gets nasty. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211286 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 20:25:32 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211286@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Klaxon "I personally believe that so long as there is no through-route on any given block that vehicle levels and speeds would be low enough for a nearly-kerbless design to work."</p> <p>I agree completely. But the article gave me the impression that through lanes in both directions would be kept, so I thought it was actually a step backwards from the trial design (with the effective one-way parts which restricted any through routes). </p> <p>Guess I should have waited for the full plans before commenting... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211285 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:56:25 +0000 chdot 211285@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"No place for double deckers in a pedestrian area"</p> <p>Do you mean that literally or 'buses and other large vehicles'? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211284 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:39:25 +0000 Klaxon 211284@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I personally believe that so long as there is no through-route on any given block that vehicle levels and speeds would be low enough for a nearly-kerbless design to work. Anyone left is going to be cruising for space to park or unload.</p> <p>If utilised, restricted parking zone bans waiting of any sort outside marked bays without the need for any other lines.</p> <p>The part that has buses would need them re-routed away or be given a proper kerb line with crossings. No place for double deckers in a pedestrian area. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211278 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 18:39:34 +0000 chdot 211278@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Stuart Hay (@StreetWurrier)<br /> 07/02/2016, 12:16 pm<br /> "Continental makeover planned 4 Edinburgh's George St" This is really positive especially if led by Businesses </p> <p><a href="http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162</a></p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211276 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:38:55 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211276@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@PS The article explicitly calls it "'shared use' vision" and Lesley Hinds mentions "focusing on the shared use".</p> <p>I may be wrong but I thought they want low kerbs and no bollards or something to protect the "pavements" because that would be problematic when using it as events space. So what will stop drivers from parking all over the place as they do in Grassmarket? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211273 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:25:57 +0000 PS 211273@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Am I missing something here? I can't see anything to suggest this is "shared space". There's clear demarcation of pavement, cycle lane, parking and road. If drivers want to park they will naturally park in the parking bay. If drivers do double park then they will simply block the path of buses and cars behind them.</p> <p>It will certainly be interesting to see what's proposed for temporary pedestrianisation, but at the very least there should be some utility points built into central points on the road to prevent the need for cables and hoses running across the pavement and cycle way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211271 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 16:33:42 +0000 neddie 211271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A great blog on Exhibition Road, the bit that works (the end bit) and the bit that doesn't (most of it by the museums)</p> <p><a href="https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/lessons-from-exhibition-road/" rel="nofollow">https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/lessons-from-exhibition-road/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211256 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:17:17 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211256@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Klaxon When I spoke to somebody at the consultation, I got the impression traffic management wasn't in their brief at all and they were just asked to provide a multi-purpose design. It would be up to the council then to dedicate the space to traffic or events which in practice means normally a through road but closing parts of it for short times. To be honest, I couldn't figure out despite long conversations how this is supposed to work in practice. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211255 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 14:02:41 +0000 Klaxon 211255@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The devil's in the detail, but if these impressions are anything to go by the project will have to be really careful to avoid being the next <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4961961,-0.1736353,3a,75y,324.38h,75.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8KJmn69MZIUjhS6_mZUM-g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">Exhibition Road</a>. I know Mr Farrar is well aware of the shortcomings of it, as it was brought up during our chat at one of the consultations. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211251 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 13:48:33 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211251@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is worth reading the <a href="http://www.livingstreetsedinburgh.org.uk/2015/12/08/briefing-the-way-forward-for-george-street/">Living Streets Edinburgh briefing on George St.</a> where they say things like:</p> <p><ul><li>Parking should be removed from the majority if not all of George St.</li><li>At least two of the blocks on George Street should be fully pedestrianised.</li><li>Space for cycling infrastructure must be taken from parking and the carriageway and not from pedestrian space. (Booo for "potentially a 10mph speed limit for cyclists" - but to be fair its generally fairly positive about cycling too)</li><li>Shared space must protect vulnerable users and restrain vehicle speeds</li><br /> </ul> </p> <p>They also point out that "Edinburgh must not fail again" and "With the exception of the High Street, Edinburgh has not delivered an effective streetscape project that could be considered close to European standard. The Grassmarket project is at best a partial success and arguably poor by European standards."</p> <p>I'm still annoyed with LSE for the Roseburn nonsense but for George Street I think they picked the correct issues and argued them well, while the council proposal fails to take any of that into account. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211248 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 13:34:08 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211248@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For more on the "shared space" vision and why it fails:<br /> <ul><li><a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/shared-space-revisited-hype-continues.html">David Hembrow: Shared Space revisited. The hype continues but in reality it still doesn't work.</a></li><li><a href="http://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-myth-of-shared-space.html">The Ranty Highwayman: The myth of shared space</a></li><br /> </ul></p> <p>And for a pedestrian view, the <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOObDPOSm-g" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOObDPOSm-g</a></p> <p>.</p> <p>The Sea of Change Film: Walking into Trouble. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211247 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 13:28:00 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211247@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>.. I forgot to mention that artist's impressions of all such schemes <strong>always</strong> show far too few cars, and no cars that break any rules and go too fast, double park or park on pavements. </p> <p>Basically don't get excited by looking at the picture, or photoshop twice as many cars into it first. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211246 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 13:24:40 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 211246@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Never mind the little bike lane in the door zone, but this is just the "shared space" idea that's failing everywhere if nothing is done to remove motor traffic. </p> <p>So George Street will still be open with one traffic lane in both directions plus parking. Why will it not be a solid line of cars as it is now at busy times? And why would drivers not double park or park on the wide pavements, as they do in Hanover Street, Grassmarket, Leith Walk etc and as they did during the trial last year?</p> <p>Part of the "shared space" vision is to remove all designated pedestrian crossings, which in practice means that many people find it difficult/impossible to cross at all if the traffic levels remains high.</p> <p>If this goes ahead, there are more problems than having the bike lane too close to the door zone.</p> <p>George Street should be pedestrianised completely, or if parking access is really needed, then individual sections should be closed off at one end and made into cul-de-sacs to remove through traffic and only have access to parking. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211240 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 12:41:56 +0000 chdot 211240@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Obviously it all comes down to "detail"!</p> <p>"<br /> An ambitious vision for George Street, the centrepiece of the New Town, will see pedestrians and cyclists given much greater priority.</p> <p>Parts of the street are expected to be regularly closed off for events to ease pressure on St Andrew Square, which attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors during the summer and winter festivals. Just one lane of traffic will be allowed on either side of the thoroughfare.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162</a></p> <p>First paragraph good, second one doesn't make it clear if there will be any bike bits that won't routinely be covered with temporary structures every Festival time. </p> <p>CCE had <em>lots</em> about the wholly inadequate 'last minute' bike lane by the pop-up gin palace/theatre. </p> <p>Lesley Hlnds was in the unfortunate position of 'promising without being able to deliver'. </p> <p>Lots for Spokes, Sustrans, Living Streets and concerned members of the public to co-operate on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=3#post-211237 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 12:30:25 +0000 Klaxon 211237@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's only one shot out of I'm sure many, but those cycle lanes while being on the 'correct' side of parking look very door zone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-211236 Sun, 07 Feb 2016 12:20:01 +0000 Stickman 211236@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Looks like the results of this are about to be published:</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/continental-makeover-planned-for-edinburgh-s-george-street-1-4023162</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-201081 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:03:24 +0000 deckard112 201081@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@kaputnik - I become a pedestrian for a few seconds at the end of George St at the crossing before jumping back on and taking the southern route round the square to Register House. That was what I used to before the cycle lanes and resorted to it last night. Very effective. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-201029 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:47:52 +0000 kaputnik 201029@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's now no longer possible for bicycles to turn right out of the west end of George Street. I guess this means I will officially abandon George Street heading west in the morning, I'm not wasting my life at 2 different sets of lights just to get around the Square to the cut-through down the side of Register House. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-201027 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:42:52 +0000 fimm 201027@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/reconstruction-of-st-marys-place-in-utrecht/" rel="nofollow">https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/reconstruction-of-st-marys-place-in-utrecht/</a></p> <p>Scroll down to the black and white photo from the 1970s and the colour photo from today... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-200949 Mon, 05 Oct 2015 14:25:23 +0000 paulmilne 200949@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If we were to take the "hierarchy of transport" seriously with pedestrians at the top and private cars at the bottom, you'd start designing with the presumption that the whole area would be pedestrians only. Then add some cycle lanes down the middle. Decide whether we need buses or does Princes/Queen street provide as much as needed. Only then do you work out what the role of private cars should be to fit in after all the other priorities. Maybe nothing, or maybe fit in a single one-way loop in either direction from Hanover street. Parking? Only if there is sensibly room after everything else. My own personal feeling is that the street is wide enough to allow a bit of non-through automotive access.</p> <p>The point is starting with car access and designing everything around that is back to front.</p> <p>Pointless though as I didn't make it along to the consultation. Hopefully something liveable will come out of it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-200785 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:11:25 +0000 chdot 200785@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think 'we' - people who ride bikes to get places - need to think about all this.</p> <p>I expect most want fewer vehicles, much less parking and 'pedestrianisation'. </p> <p>Rose Street style? - ok that's <em>much</em> narrower, but the principle of shared space with NO cycle lanes is the way it works (not as a prime east/west cycle route).</p> <p>Is 'pedestrianisation' UK/Edinburgh style workable with segregated cycle lanes? Is that the desirable compromise?</p> <p>I'd be quite content with George Street having 'bicycles by consent' - ie where bikes had to go slowly and expect to meet casual peds.</p> <p>BUT that would 'need' serious cycle provision on Princes Street (not likely unless they remove most buses), or Queen Street - not 'possible' until CEC willing to seriously restrict city centre traffic. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-200784 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 09:59:55 +0000 chdot 200784@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Stuart Hay (@StreetWurrier)<br /> 02/10/2015, 21:24<br /> George Street needs to be walking street if it's going to be a living street @fountainbridge @fountainbridge </p> <p><a href="http://pic.twitter.com/FWrLO7b1vA" rel="nofollow">http://pic.twitter.com/FWrLO7b1vA</a></p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15283&page=2#post-200777 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 07:51:38 +0000 Klaxon 200777@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>George St transcends blanket statements of 'do what the Dutch do' because pedestrianisation isn't exclusive to those areas at all. It's standard treatment for historic city centre areas all across Europe. </p>