http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Rethink needed over Scottish carbon targets en Sun, 31 May 2026 23:10:50 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-197094 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 19:57:28 +0000 chdot 197094@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This is the new PR narrative - 'it's for poor people' -</p> <p>"</p> <p>“The reality is that hydrocarbons will remain a major part of the world’s energy system for many years, not least because they provide the path to prosperity for many millions of people in the developing world, enabling them to enjoy living standards that the western world takes for granted.”</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/closure-major-cardiff-waste-site-9935734" rel="nofollow">http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/closure-major-cardiff-waste-site-9935734</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-197006 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:03:08 +0000 Charlethepar 197006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@kaputnik, chdot</p> <p>The idea is that we have decided that big plant carbon emissions will be dealt with through EU wide permit trading. It does not matter to the planet where the carbon is emitted. Once we have made that choice, we have no policy need to worry about large plant carbon emissions in our own territory. </p> <p>So, for things we can and do worry about, like household energy consumption, we take the carbon intensity of electricity as a given. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196975 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:36:16 +0000 chdot 196975@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"have to build themselves a new fossil-fuel power station in Scotland first"</p> <p>I think that is the point here - somehow carbon trading offsets 'account for' the closure and allocation of 'country of origin'(?)</p> <p>"Sounds too complex and " </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196969 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:28:08 +0000 kaputnik 196969@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So, by itself, closing one plant does not reduce the totality of emissions.</em></p> <p>They (or someone else) wouldd have to build themselves a new fossil-fuel power station in Scotland first though before those emissions were actually "in"/"from" Scotland though? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196968 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:18:25 +0000 chdot 196968@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"So, by itself, closing one plant does not reduce the totality of emissions."</p> <p>That depends. </p> <p><em>If</em> the closure time matched the commissioning of some renewables it would. </p> <p>Also <em>presumably</em> the 'extra' electricity will come from newer/more efficient plants(?) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196966 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:12:51 +0000 Charlethepar 196966@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@chdot</p> <p>When Longannet closes, SP will be able to use the carbon permits somewhere else, or sell them to someone else to use. So, by itself, closing one plant does not reduce the totality of emissions. </p> <p>The total number of carbon permits across Europe is gradually reducing over years, which does reduce emissions over time, theoretically in the most efficient way. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196961 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:05:21 +0000 Charlethepar 196961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Notwithstanding, that the single largest point source of carbon emissions in Scotland is closing is surely not a point in dispute?</em></p> <p>Indeed. And some of what fills the gap in electricity generation will be of lower carbon intensity. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196959 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:03:24 +0000 chdot 196959@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"it is treated differently"</p> <p>So on a 'balance sheet' somewhere its as though Longannet isn't closing?</p> <p>Or is it about the actualité of replacing the generating capacity with that from somewhere else? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196954 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:50:18 +0000 kaputnik 196954@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Because Longannet is part of the European Trading Scheme for Carbon emissions, it is treated differently in ways too complex and dull to imagine. But in short, no it does not give an immediate boost to Scotland's measured performance.</em></p> <p>Sounds too complex and dull for me to even try imagining. Notwithstanding, that the single largest point source of carbon emissions in Scotland is closing is surely not a point in dispute? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337&page=2#post-196953 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:48:29 +0000 chdot 196953@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>THE energy firm behind a controversial bid to burn coal under the Firth of Forth to create gas has blamed political uncertainty as it said work on a planning application is now likely to be postponed.</p> <p>Cluff Natural Resources highlighted factors including the energy commission recently set up by the Scottish Government, a motion at the SNP conference calling for a ban on underground coal gasification (UCG) and the Scottish parliamentary elections next May.</p> <p>But North Sea veteran Algy Cluff, who heads the company, said he was still committed to the project to build Britain’s first UCG plant.</p> <p>“It remains our avowed intention to seek approval to install a pilot plant as soon as is practicable to generate limited production from the Firth of Forth before constructing Britain’s first UCG plant,” said Cluff, who is chairman and chief executive of the company.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/anger-as-energy-firm-aims-to-burn-coal-under-forth-1-3869000" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/anger-as-energy-firm-aims-to-burn-coal-under-forth-1-3869000</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196939 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:10:03 +0000 Charlethepar 196939@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So, all those people who hoot and holler with approval when Hicks said people in advertising should kill themselves missed the (obvious) point that Hicks himself made damn sure he was advertising himself.</em></p> <p>That is as about a clever an argument as people who point to something you own that is plastic, and say that since you own it you MUST support drilling in the antartic/ fracking/ tar sands etc. That is, not at all clever.</p> <p>Another similar stupid argument is "But, people go to Climate Change negotiations BY PLANE!!!!" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196937 Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:04:35 +0000 Charlethepar 196937@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The closure of Longannet power station cuts Scotland's carbon emissions by 15% in one go.</em></p> <p>Because Longannet is part of the European Trading Scheme for Carbon emissions, it is treated differently in ways too complex and dull to imagine. But in short, no it does not give an immediate boost to Scotland's measured performance. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196924 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:52:37 +0000 chdot 196924@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.greenhouse-gases.org.uk" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenhouse-gases.org.uk</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196920 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 19:50:49 +0000 kaputnik 196920@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/xNHtuz"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/675/20875710701_73cb8b2cf2.jpg"></a><a href="https://flic.kr/p/xNHtuz">An odd thing to mourn</a> by <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/">andy a</a>, on Flickr</p> <p>Visualisation of above figures. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196919 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 19:38:08 +0000 chdot 196919@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One today repeating moratorium-</p> <p>"</p> <p>“In government, the SNP has ensured that Scotland is at the forefront of environmental protection – legislating for world-leading climate change targets, significantly increasing renewable generation and placing a moratorium on fracking. The German decision shows that Scotland is now also leading Europe on GM crops.” </p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/aug/snp-welcomes-german-gm-ban" rel="nofollow">http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/aug/snp-welcomes-german-gm-ban</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196906 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:59:41 +0000 kaputnik 196906@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>So that's CEC SNP, what about SG SNP?</em></p> <p><a href="http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jan/moratorium-fracking-scotland-announced">Following the moratorium announced in January</a>, there's been no press releases on the SNP website.</p> <p>Apparently UKIP were very upset that the SNP got chair of the Energy Committee at Westminster because of this. </p> <p>As many a little bit more plugged into the Scottish Politics than Douglas Carswell suspect though, there will be substantial "it's Scotland's shale" elements within the SNP who are either ambivalent through enthusiastic about fracking.</p> <p>I seem to recall Dave &amp; Gideon were threatening (or the SNP claimed they were threatening) to over rule Holyrood anyway, at which point the SNP could come out as strongly anti-Fracking and let Westminster and the Tories take all the stick.</p> <p>I'm not sure there's any prospective fracking sites/licences up for grabs in Edinburgh, however West Lothian is just next door and we share watercourses with them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196903 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:48:47 +0000 chdot 196903@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Adam McVey (@adamrmcvey)<br /> 06/08/2015 11:49<br /> Today planning committee affirmed council policy AGAINST fracking. Incompatible with no. of sustainability policies. <a href="http://pic.twitter.com/xq8Tw6OlyF" rel="nofollow">http://pic.twitter.com/xq8Tw6OlyF</a></p> <p>"</p> <p>So that's CEC SNP, what about SG SNP? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196872 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:31:09 +0000 kaputnik 196872@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Amir - tha't just home heating and cooking etc. The building of them is classed under "development" and is an order of magnitude lower.</p> <p><em>Presumably we'll still be using the same amount of electricity.</em></p> <p>Indeed, but a/ it won't be booked under Scotland's carbon emmissions and b/ it won't be generated by new-build coal, it will be either from gas generation from south of the border or extra renewables. So inevitably some will be carbon for carbon, but certainly less carbon-intensive and polluting forms of carbon. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196856 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:19:41 +0000 amir 196856@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"homes are 7.0 Mt " is that non-electric home heating or building? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196855 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:30 +0000 gibbo 196855@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>The closure of Longannet power station cuts Scotland's carbon emissions by 15% in one go.</em></p> <p>Presumably we'll still be using the same amount of electricity. Is Longannet being replaced by something greener? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196852 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:52:18 +0000 kaputnik 196852@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The closure of Longannet power station cuts Scotland's carbon emissions by 15% in one go.</p> <p>Longannet's annual CO2 emissions are 9.5 Mtonnes.</p> <p>Agriculture is 12.4 Mt, domestic transport (not including international flights and shipping) is 10.5Mt, business and industry is 9.1 Mt, homes are 7.0 Mt and the rest of the energy generation sector (not including Longannet) is 6.5 Mt. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196840 Tue, 25 Aug 2015 11:16:20 +0000 chdot 196840@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>AN overhaul of Scotland's energy sector would create tens of thousands more jobs than currently exist in the oil and fossil fuels industry, new research claims.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13623461.Greens__200_000_new_energy_jobs_by_2035_and_nationalise_Grangemouth" rel="nofollow">http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13623461.Greens__200_000_new_energy_jobs_by_2035_and_nationalise_Grangemouth</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196772 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:32:34 +0000 chdot 196772@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"remain <em>ideologically</em> opposed to cycling infrastructure"</p> <p>That's only a <em>small</em> part of the problem. </p> <p>remain <em>ideologically</em> in favour of 'personal' motor transport - petrol, diesel or electric </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196769 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:22:55 +0000 Calum 196769@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The problem with reports like this is that, were any heed taken of them, everything would already have been done decades ago. Obviously, it hasn't been - and it won't be, for as long as the bland, interchangeable political parties that take their turns running the show remain <em>ideologically</em> opposed to cycling infrastructure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196767 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:51:19 +0000 chdot 196767@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"</p> <p>Environment Secretary launches circular economy consultation.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Making-things-last-1c24.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Making-things-last-1c24.aspx</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196765 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:34:42 +0000 gibbo 196765@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"Bill Hicks was right about people in marketing."</em></p> <p>Interesting. You believe another member of this forum should kill himself?</p> <p>Don't worry, I'm not going to take it personally. I think your comment is more a reflection of you than a reflection of me.</p> <p>But, let me tell you a couple of things... </p> <p>First, I saw Bill Hicks live. You know how I was able to see him live? It's because he made sure his gig was advertised.</p> <p>Second, I have an mp3 somewhere of Hicks talking with Howard Stern. Hicks said he only did shows like Letterman because doing those shows got him better billing and better money - i.e. he did them as advertising.</p> <p>So, all those people who hoot and holler with approval when Hicks said people in advertising should kill themselves missed the (obvious) point that Hicks himself made damn sure he was advertising himself. </p> <p>(And that his promoters/bookers were advertising his shows.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196761 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:51:36 +0000 chdot 196761@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Bill Hicks was right about people in marketing."</p> <p>Contains lots of swearing (as you'd expect) -</p> <p><a href="http://genius.com/Bill-hicks-on-advertisers-and-marketing-annotated" rel="nofollow">http://genius.com/Bill-hicks-on-advertisers-and-marketing-annotated</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196745 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:35:15 +0000 Charlethepar 196745@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Is that the same as 'close to impossible'?<br /> </em></p> <p><em>Commercially, it's close to "financial suicide" as marketing costs almost always exceed the revenue generated.</em></p> <p>Well, marketing is a lot of the problem in the first place, making a 5 year old model of car look absurdly old fashioned and undesirable; in comparison with a new one, which will make the owner instantly successful and sexually attractive.</p> <p>Bill Hicks was right about people in marketing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196734 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:27:54 +0000 gibbo 196734@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Is that the same as 'close to impossible'? </em></p> <p>Commercially, it's close to "financial suicide" as marketing costs almost always exceed the revenue generated.</p> <p>For governments, it is possible to change behaviour. </p> <p>But, in this case, the benefit would be so far down the road - and the person changing is getting very little direct benefit from their own sacrifices - that I'd conclude it's probably impossible. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15337#post-196732 Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:22:05 +0000 ih 196732@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In general, I agree that the 'prevention message' is a difficult sell. But not impossible. There have been some quite effective public service TV messages in the past. Some relatively recent ones that spring to mind are, anti-smoking, and the AIDS/HIV awareness campaigns. </p> <p>With the will, this approach would reap benefits in the 'green' area. Is there the will though. </p>