http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Worried Lothian bus driver en Tue, 14 Jul 2026 12:04:46 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14854 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:20:11 +0000 Rabid Hamster 14854@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>As LaidBack says, one has to be careful with all this new technology LED for velos on the market. On his advice, went down to TBC yesterday and got one of these rear rack 0.5W RSP rear LED reflector combinations. TBC were most helpful and cheery! Put the batteries in, switched on and nearly seared the back off my retinae! The centre LED is embedded in a huge (for LED) acrylic lens thingy which focusses it like the Bell Rock light!<br /> When competing in the 'arms race' for recognition on the Capital's tarways, this is definitely a rear-facing gun turret! The traffic behind will take 2 options: stay well back off you! or race to get past (as it is hurting their eyes) and scrub you accidentally whilst in their massive 'blind spot'! I've flung my copy of the HC in the bucket, and only work by the Geneva Convention from now on as it is winter, and it is war!</p> <p>Take care out there! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14794 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:50:16 +0000 wee folding bike 14794@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well that could be mine... if I'd been in Edinburgh.</p> <p>I get them because they last a long time and the RWD ones are fairly simple to mend. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14792 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:24:47 +0000 kaputnik 14792@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Said Volvo was ageing mid-90s wardrobe-on-wheels middle manager type </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14776 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:32:57 +0000 wee folding bike 14776@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Making a Volvo from the last 35 years go dark involves pulling a fuse. Any RWD model in the last 20 yrs runs at 20% power dips all the time. I only turn on the real dips when I'm out of town.</p> <p>I don't know what those fancy pants FWD ones do with their lights but I do know they are bothersome to park because the steering is poo and I overshoot spaces.</p> <p>16 yrs ago I had a NightSun which I think had 45W and two halogen bulbs. It was pretty good but I prefer the SON Edelux. The Pashley's Lumotec and SA hub works fine too but I'm having to get used to it going out when I stop. It's a useful indicator of having locked up your front wheel too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14763 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:58:35 +0000 spitfire 14763@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Steveo - <em>if a bus pulls out from a stop and then says SMIDSY does that make you feel any better about inattentive driving. Much like the van driver who didn't see your side lights. </em></p> <p>Not the same, if a bus pulls out and I am behind it?<br /> If I am in a van or minibus (which was a bad example as it was only once and on a motorway with spray misting up the wing mirror and the side window)<br /> When I am driving I tend to flick on my dipped beams when the streetlights come on given that if I just put the sides on I may very well forget to move up to dipped when the darkness gets real (gets a job and moves out of it's folks' house) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14762 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:39:32 +0000 steveo 14762@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting you say that i've just been poking around to try and work out the difference between various lights.</p> <p><a href="http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=15539">Decent Blinky </a>4 high quality 5mm leds approx 45 lumens per watt and running at a little over a quarter watt in total<br /> 11.25 Lumens</p> <p><a href="http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_215094_langId_-1_categoryId_165538">Side light</a> typically 2 5w at approx 15 lumens per watt<br /> 150 Lumens</p> <p>A good quality front light for this example I've used a <a href="http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=24391">hope </a>which list up to 250 lumens probably nothing like that for most of its run time tbh but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt<br /> 250 lumens</p> <p>Car <a href="http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_212022_langId_-1_categoryId_165538">dipped headlights </a>55w halogen gets an efficiency boost of about 20 lumen's per watt<br /> 2200 Lumens</p> <p>Also given the way our eyes perceive light there would be little difference between the actual brightness of the side light and hope head light except that the hope focuses the light to a spot while the side lights just glow in a fairly broad reflector. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14759 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:28:38 +0000 Dave 14759@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>@Dave thats a fair point but doesn't address the perception of being more safe on your bike with a only slightly brighter light.</em></p> <p>I don't feel more safe on my bike... I feel equally that I wouldn't like to ride my bike with a dim light on it, or drive my car with dim lights either. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14757 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:53:07 +0000 steveo 14757@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave thats a fair point but doesn't address the perception of being more safe on your bike with a only slightly brighter light.</p> <p>@Smudge I think some of experimentation may be required because i'm unconvinced. A car at a side junction isn't really sending much light in the direction of the bike on the main road to reflect of the reflectors.</p> <p>And finally Spitfire, your probably right but again if a bus pulls out from a stop and then says SMIDSY does that make you feel any better about inattentive driving. Much like the van driver who didn't see your side lights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14755 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:35:01 +0000 spitfire 14755@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo - <em>"Besides what does it matter if the car behind you is running fairly dark as long as the one in front has decent tail lights."</em><br /> If they are pulling out to overtake or change lanes it is good to know about it </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14754 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:30:23 +0000 Smudge 14754@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Steveo, I have to agree to disagree with that, at a distance the dip is below the cyclist and the bikes retroreflectives (and pedal reflectors especially!) are picked up by the oncoming lights. Also the bike tends to be sillhouetted against the following car which also makes them visible.</p> <p>Your safety isn't being adversely affected by a car behind you on dips, it's being adversely affected by a driver pulling out without properly checking the road is clear!</p> <p>What you cannot prevent is the car driver at the junction looking both ways *for oncoming cars* and not noticing bikes. My own experience on bikes is that you can be the brightest thing on the road and they'll still pull out (sigh).</p> <p>The actions as a bike/cycle rider remain the same, assume the car/truck/bike/bus at the side road *will* pull out and be ready to avoid/sound your horn as required.</p> <p>Being visible is a good thing but only defensive riding will *really* increase your safety (imho and no offence meant) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537&page=2#post-14753 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:29:41 +0000 Dave 14753@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's an interesting debate, hey?</p> <p>I'm very much reminded of the passages I recently re-read in Dawkins' <em>Greatest Show on Earth</em> (although I'm sure the examples have been used in many places before that). I.e. it would be better for peacocks if all peacocks had half as much plumage, and that wouldn't change the relative ordering amongst them either. </p> <p>Yet, because of the way the world works, there is too much individual advantage to ever deliver on this. I *could* ride with a £2.50 blinkie and switch my "to see by" light off around town. But, I won't - even though it might end up to the disbenefit of "lesser" light users.</p> <p>However, if we all agreed to use blinkies (including cars) so the relative stage stayed even, I'd be quite happy to do so. </p> <p>Or thinking of the peacocks... would I? ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14752 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:19:51 +0000 LaidBack 14752@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>there is something of a headlights arms-race going on</em></p> <p>Same on rear lights too.. I'm guilty of owning and using a <strong>Cherry Bomb</strong> now... </p> <p>Not sure if it's legal. Seems a bit bright but does make cars notice. As does that rack light that TBC sold me.</p> <p>Batteries will run down and it will get back to normal I'm sure! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14751 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:18:06 +0000 steveo 14751@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The different road position is half the problem your dipped head lights are dipping to the position where most cyclists can be found, all your dipped head lights do is completely over whelm the lights of the cyclist. Making your self safer at the expense of another road user.</p> <p> Even with the brightest lights at any kind of distance a cyclist is nearly indistinguishable from the car that may be many metres behind thus a car coming out a junction mightn't see the cyclist since they think there is sufficient gap.</p> <p>Also you'll note that the use of side lights is an exception and not a legal minimum. <strong>You must</strong> use headlights except where there is street lighting. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14749 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:11:15 +0000 Smudge 14749@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"113</p> <p>You MUST</p> <p>* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise<br /> * use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified<br /> * use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)"</p> <p>Indeed, you must, but "MUST" is the key word there, that is the MINIMUM, not the reccomendation...<br /> As with speed limits being a maximum, many lighting rules are the minimum.</p> <p>Personally if it's dark enough to merit lights then dipped lights go on. I try to use bright cycle lights for the same reason, not because it's the legal minimum but because it's sensible.<br /> Cars etc are generally moving faster and in a different road position to bicycles in poor/borderline positions, hence lower poer bike lights being adequate, I would suggest however if you are travelling at powered vehicle speeds and consequently occupying comparable road positions then brighter lights are sensible. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14747 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:04:40 +0000 Arellcat 14747@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Highway code now makes a point about how you shouldn't do it.</em></p> <p>"<a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070302">Rule 114</a>: You MUST NOT</p> <p>* use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders<br /> * use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves to avoid dazzling other road users (see Rule 226)</p> <p>In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again."</p> <p><a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/27/made">RVLR 27</a>:<br /> "No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle on which any lamp, hazard warning signal device or warning beacon of a type specified [in an item in column 2 of the Table below] is used:</p> <p>11 (Any other lamp) ...so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road."</p> <p>Bit difficult on a motorbike, that one, since most of them don't have handbrakes/parking brakes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14742 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:23:29 +0000 recombodna 14742@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Bus driver should be drving his bus and watching out for invisible cyclists, not reading his Metro and composing texts."</p> <p>Maybe....just maybe he doesn't drive a bus 24/7. He's right too. There are many blind spots on a vehicle that size so get yourself seen. Take a brush to your bike add some tape if you like but get yourself seen.....dark means danger! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14741 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:21:18 +0000 steveo 14741@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dave can we back up a second... Are you saying your uncomfortable in a car with ~150 lumens upfront and all requisite safety equipment but comfortable on your bike with only an extra 100 lumens? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14739 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:15:42 +0000 cb 14739@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>People sitting with their foot on the brakes does my head in too. (Highway code now makes a point about how you shouldn't do it). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14734 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:57:55 +0000 kaputnik 14734@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is my perception that there is something of a headlights arms-race going on, particularly among cars of the "executive" breed. Not content with having the daytime row of perma-lit LEDs around your main lights so that other punters know where exactly your lights are if they happened to be wondering, it also seems if you don't have beams on the front that can cut through steel sheet at 20 paces then you aren't keeping up. Some cars out there seriously blind you to the point where you think it would be safer to wear sunnies at night! </p> <p>Interestingly, I was an hour earlier than usual on the road this morning so it was proper "dark" and encountered a Volvo running <em>without</em> any lights at all. I wonder if they still worked during day time? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14733 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:57:17 +0000 steveo 14733@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Personally i'm happy with that if some one pulls out in front of me then its still their fault. Personally i rarely drive with my dips on in town usually only when i forget to override the auto headlight system and i've yet to have a car drive into me.</p> <p>Taking that to the nth degree should all bikes have 100+ watts of halogen so they don't look like a gap in traffic? After all a little blinky is dimmer than my side lights and a bike is much less noticeable (apparently) than my ton of rolling French (dodgy) manufacturing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14730 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:51:18 +0000 Dave 14730@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"its just that people have become accustomed to seeing 100+w of car headlight and folk with dimmer lights just disappear into the night"</em></p> <p>Exactly. There's a fair argument that we'd be best off if nobody had lights at all, and you had to pay attention to what was going on (is that car parked? Is it just being driven close to the kerb?)</p> <p>But like it or not, your car is competing for attention with many vehicles that have their fog lights or even full beams on (I've seen a few these last days).</p> <p>I fear our car would just look like a gap in traffic with the sides on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14729 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:48:18 +0000 spitfire 14729@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@kaputnik - no, no it doesn't. It does, however, keep your top lip from getting stung and adds a nice insulation layer on frosty mornings, have you ever seen an arctic explorer without full face fuzz (often with ice hanging from it)? It catches soup (and noodles) and can be broken off when frozen solid and added to melted ice in a pot to make a new super broth comprised of weeks worth of various foods.... mmm tasty </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14727 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:44:36 +0000 kaputnik 14727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Hmm, are the 'tache and glasses necessary? Otherwise I'm good with it.</em></p> <p>Well the glasses keep the wasps out your eyes, I suppose the moustache keeps them out ones mouth </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14726 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:41:43 +0000 steveo 14726@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Dave, side lights don't have to be bright under street lights you can see the cars. How do you think the masses with blinkies managed not to run into cars at every junction. They are usually only 5/10w incandescent bulbs and I expect they were never much brighter than that its just that people have become accustomed to seeing 100+w of car headlight and folk with dimmer lights just disappear into the night. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14725 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:40:48 +0000 cb 14725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Hmm, are the 'tache and glasses necessary? Otherwise I'm good with it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14722 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:36:34 +0000 kaputnik 14722@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><img src="http://128.83.80.200/klr/tronguy.jpg"><br /> The only real solution. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14719 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:32:01 +0000 Dave 14719@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The problem is that sidelights are now pointlessly dim (perhaps specifically because everybody drives around using their main dip beams?)</p> <p>I'd be in favour of using side-lights in town except that on our car, they are less visible than my bike light!</p> <p>This time of year is interesting because it's when I start riding with my light on full time, and it does seem to make an appreciable difference to motorist stupidity (that is, they see me either way, but with the light on fewer are prone to pausing and then pulling out anyway)</p> <p>For the cautious, I recommend having a headstrap-mounted light quite highly. You can direct it at specific targets of your ire (people closing in down a roundabout entrance, etc) who wouldn't otherwise get much from your normal lights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14717 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:25:27 +0000 spitfire 14717@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@winpig - that's why I mount a flashing light on my nut lid (that flashes at a random rate so it is not something that can really be "zoned out") in addition to the heavy flashing beam on the handlebars </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14715 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:24:31 +0000 steveo 14715@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Spytfire, not buying it....</p> <p><em>113</p> <p>You MUST</p> <p> * ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise<br /> * use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified<br /> * use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)</em><br /> <a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070302" rel="nofollow">http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070302</a></p> <p>Sorry poorly maintained equipment is not an excuse for any one. Besides what does it matter if the car behind you is running fairly dark as long as the one in front has decent tail lights. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=1537#post-14714 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:22:05 +0000 wingpig 14714@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When cars have their lights on in gloom-but-not-dark it makes me worry that my current lights (more than sufficient to see by and be seen in the dark) aren't any more visible than the reflections of their headlights in parked cars' bumpers and so on, though this isn't helped by my eyes' position above and behind the lights where they leak little. I'd go for something head-mounted if I thought that car drivers with their lights already on would be looking for anything at any level other than car-headlight-height. Seeing how quickly work-finish-time has been after lighting-up-time this week I'll probably feel compelled to augment the front light set with something this weekend. </p>