http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Not sport - Transport en Wed, 13 May 2026 02:01:01 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200430 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:14:47 +0000 Arellcat 200430@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Which would be marketing(?)</p> <p>Unless this is easier/cheaper to make for this sort of bike, not sure there's any real advantage over metal.</em></p> <p>Marketing for the high-end consumer, yes.</p> <p>In mass production terms you'd probably create an aluminium monocoque in a complex hydroforming mould. Less quick would be seam welding together two hydroformed halves. Both would end up heavier than carbon for the same level of performance. Carbon and glass allow complete control over fibre orientation, weave and layup thickness and have no grain to worry about, so you can optimise for weight, strength and stiffness and not worry about corrosion (except galvanic, with certain metal parts). But carbon is labour intensive and energy intensive, and the raw materials (remember there's epoxy and mould release to consider too) have a terrible 'carbon footprint' compared with using recycled aluminium or wood.</p> <p>A utility bike is basically a heavier built road bike, in carbon terms. It won't dent, though it can be a bit splintery if the epoxy is squeezed out a fraction too much during production. It's also very repairable because you just glue it back together and add a few more layers of matting. But while you could take a steel frame to a framebuilder, it's not so straightforward to repair carbon, or at least repair it <em>well</em>. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200427 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:29:15 +0000 chdot 200427@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Part of this is about whether one bike can do 'everything' - or not -</p> <p><a href="https://cyclefridays.wordpress.com/n1" rel="nofollow">https://cyclefridays.wordpress.com/n1</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200426 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:27:29 +0000 cc 200426@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm the happy owner of the gigantic pastoorfiets and I love it to bits.<br /> Frankly I wouldn't know fashion if it hit me in the face; I'm always different from other folks and, if it's relevant, rarely very well dressed.<br /> Why I love my big Dutch bike:<br /> <ul><li>I love riding upright, and the pastoorfiets was the most upright bike I could find.</li><li>I love the funny-looking frame.</li><li>The all-steel frame flexes and smooths out bumps for me.</li><li>It's so relaxing to ride. I get far less stressed than I used to on my old nippy aluminium bike.</li><li>I don't <em>want</em> to keep up with the traffic. I'll go at my own pace, thanks. Less stress and anxiety for me. And anyway I try to avoid routes where I'd feel the need to keep up with the traffic.</li><li>Me and my bike are so big together that I feel very visible, which makes me feel a lot safer. And since I don't dart about the road on it, I reckon my motion is more predictable for other road users.</li><li>Riding something unusual also makes me feel more noticed, which again makes me feel safer. There's not so much chance of nobody noticing me and the pastoorfiets coming along the road.</li><li>(Perhaps the silliest, dreamiest reason.) I had a kind of cargo cult idea that maybe riding such a take-your-time relaxing bike would, just by its visible presence in the city, do its bit to help to encourage the less frantic, more universal 8-to-88 sort of cycling, and the infrastructure and road changes which are needed for that.</li><li>I love it.</li><br /> </ul><br /> It's light enough for me to carry it up &amp; down the stairs every day btw.</p> <p>(And by the way I'd recommend Laid Back Bikes too; endlessly patient and helpful with my oddest questions from first to last.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200425 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:15:01 +0000 chdot 200425@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"carbon fibre because it's good for making shapes"</p> <p>Which would be marketing(?)</p> <p>Unless this is easier/cheaper to make <em>for this sort of bike</em>, not sure there's any real advantage over metal. </p> <p>Would certainly be good if 'a lot lighter' than many Dutch/transport bikes. </p> <p>Presume gearbox is far from cheap. </p> <p>As always, number of gears is seldom the issue. It's about whether bottom gear is low enough to get user up steepest hill they frequently encounter. </p> <p>Obviously for a conventional 3 speed this would definitely be at the expense of a high top gear. But that may well be fine for a lot of users - and potential users. </p> <p>Another good feature of MB's latest is the fully enclosed chain. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200420 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:46:26 +0000 Arellcat 200420@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Less Dutch, more Norfolk, is Mike Burrows' latest idea for a town bike. A true monocoque frame (of course), cantilever axles (of course), carbon fibre because it's good for making shapes, and! – the Pinion 9 speed gearbox. Photos courtesy of Bikefix in That London:</p> <p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.683972945042192&amp;type=3&amp;l=7183b72b2a" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.683972945042192&amp;type=3&amp;l=7183b72b2a</a></p> <p>Though for sheer might, it's hard to beat that gigantic Pastoorfiets bike that Laid Back sold. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200415 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:06:40 +0000 steveo 200415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Isn't every one on "dutch" bikes just as much fashion as anything else, especially if they're not really appropriate for the conditions? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200413 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:01:00 +0000 crowriver 200413@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On fashion, an anecdote.</p> <p>Recently picked up a second hand Kona Paddy Wagon single speed/fixed gear bike. Seller had commuted on it for a few years. I sought a replacement for my home-built road bike single speed which I'm going to convert back to a geared bike.</p> <p>The reason the owner was selling the Kona? Bought an adventure road bike for commuting and 'fun'.</p> <p>I don't mind being behind the curve if I get a good deal on a decent bike... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200411 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:55:55 +0000 crowriver 200411@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Adventure Road Bikes, to be precise, are a 'new' category separate to Cyclocross bikes at least according to the Evans web site:</p> <p>"Introducing the Cannondale Synapse Rival Adventure Disc 2015 Road Bike, a UK exclusive to Evans Cycles. Utilising the award winning Synapse frame, it provides an upright position for greater riding comfort, combined with silky smooth SAVE PLUS technology gives first-time road riders, commuters and fitness-lovers a versatile blend of comfort, speed and value. Advanced alloy construction creates a lightweight, responsive frame with the crisp handling youd expect from a Cannondale. SRAM hydraulic disc brakes provide incredible stopping power in all conditions, and the custom colour matched full length guards not only compliment the bike, but make sure stay dry from surface water and spray."</p> <p>Sounds a bit like a cross/fitness hybrid/tourer/road bike with mudguards to me.<br /> A snip at 1200 quid (was 1600 quid). </p> <p>Market segmentation continues.<br /> Which category do you fit into?</p> <p><a href="http://www.evanscycles.com/categories/bikes" rel="nofollow">http://www.evanscycles.com/categories/bikes</a></p> <p>(Ranked according to polarity, presumably). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200409 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:46:47 +0000 Min 200409@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I love my cross bike. I love being able to ride anywhere on it. And I have adventure raced it too, they are perfect for that.</p> <p><em>So upright, great traffic-viewing ability, good too for spacial awareness.</em></p> <p>Yes, in all respects apart from speed (or drivers perception of speed) they are perfect for town cycling. Probably why they are popular in countries/town with a real cycling culture.. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200408 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:43:26 +0000 PS 200408@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Crossbikes' big selling point (for the general consumer) is their versatility. You can offroad, on road, light tour, commute, etc on one. I've only ever really used mine for offroad trails, but there's something comforting about knowing that, at a push, I could use it for other stuff. </p> <p>We should not forget peer pressure/what will other people think of my bike issue that is particularly prevalent in boys/young men. Years ago, I chose a BMX for my first proper bike because that's what my mates had, rather than a racer which would have much better suited the types of trips I did (mainly riding to friends' houses, but there were hills involved). Racers weren't cool then. Not round our way anyway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509&page=2#post-200407 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:40:12 +0000 Baldcyclist 200407@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Isn't the term 'cross' bike so last year? I thought they were 'gravel', or 'adventure' bikes now? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200405 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:30:17 +0000 crowriver 200405@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"None of that really explains those people who do cycle, and cycle a lot, and 'choose' a 'non-transport' bike though. "</p> <p>Well I would argue it does. You are describing a member of the minority "cycling enthusiasts" who "cycle a lot", i.e.. not just on a Sunday, for 'sport', etc. Most of the bike industry's marketing targets enthusiasts (N+1, anyone?).</p> <p>There's a reason why you're riding a 'cross' bike rather than a 'tourer' as transport. Despite the fact they are functionally very similar (drop bars, wide gear ratios, steel frame, 700c wheels, good frame clearance, robust braking, etc.).</p> <p>I know that you do in fact ride cyclocross events, so it makes sense for you to own a cross bike. That does not explain their popularity in the market however. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200403 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:22:27 +0000 crowriver 200403@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The so-called Dutch bike is just an updated version of the classic English roadster eg. Raleigh, Sunbeam, Phillips, Dunlop. Pashley still make these and you see a lot of them in Oxford and Cambridge. Occasionally spotted in Edinburgh too, but a bit heavy for the Edinburgh hills.</p> <p>If you have the right braze-ons on the frame it's often possible to retro-fit a frame lock. Can be incredibly inexpensive, as <a href="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BICYCLE-FRAME-LOCK-DUTCH-MODEL-BICYCLE-BIKE-CYCLE-CLASSIC-RETRO-BLACK-2-KEYS-/111661683454">here</a>. Often possible even without the right braze-ons. Some models have a cable lock attachment for threading through the front wheel, saddle, etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200395 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 12:05:38 +0000 gkgk 200395@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I borrowed flatmate's EBC straight bar, step-through, basket-on-front £279 ladies' town bike for a go. Handlebars 3 inches higher than seat. It was great! So upright, great traffic-viewing ability, good too for spacial awareness. The gearing was light so it actually felt quite quick, up to a speed (15mph or so) .The better awareness of surroundings made me feel safer and I went slower, so could go closer to parked cars. It was pretty good. If my converted mtb were stolen, I'd consider such a steed, for sure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200390 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:56:47 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 200390@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Agree with Morningsider, I love my Dutch bike but I don't think you could really call it practical for getting around Edinburgh. It has seven gears, which is almost unheard of for a Dutch bike, but even in bottom gear the mound is a struggle (for a youngish guy of above average fitness). </p> <p>For me the real innovation that you see on almost every Dutch bike and don't see in Edinburgh bike shops is the rear wheel lock attached to the frame. They are incredibly practical for situations like locking up your bike outside a cafe where you can see it, locking the bike takes about one and a half seconds when you have these. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200389 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:55:26 +0000 fimm 200389@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I rode to work on my TT bike a few times when I was training for a particular thing and needed to spend as much time as I could on it. </p> <p>Sport? Transport? Both? (I would argue both).</p> <p>(I'm not suggesting that a TT bike is a suitable transport bike!!!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200385 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:42:05 +0000 Morningsider 200385@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There isn't a single cycling culture or one type of "correct" transport bike. I would argue that an Edinburgh "transport bike" should not look like a Dutch one. It would be lighter, with a wider gear range to cope with hills and the need to mix with faster moving traffic. In effect a hybrid - which does seem to be the commuter bike of choice in the city. These come in many shapes and sizes - as do cyclists.</p> <p>It's also worth remembering that the Dutch and Danes love their cars just as much as Scots (1). It's just that public policy has made urban cycling easier and urban driving more awkward/expensive in these countries. Scots aren't uniquely lazy/stupid/pig headed.</p> <p>(1) <a href="http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Number_of_passenger_cars_per_inhabitant_by_NUTS_2_region,_2010.PNG" rel="nofollow">http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Number_of_passenger_cars_per_inhabitant_by_NUTS_2_region,_2010.PNG</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200380 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:26:18 +0000 Min 200380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I think 'trasnport' bikes of that kind are a consequence of cycling culture, rather than a creator of it</em></p> <p>I agree. When I feel safe riding at a sedate pace, I will be happy to ride a Dutch bike. I expect that if that ever happens here, by then I will be so old I will need a faster type of bike just to be able to ride at Dutch bike speed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200378 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:19:41 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 200378@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>None of that really explains those people who do cycle, and cycle a lot, and 'choose' a 'non-transport' bike though. Because, yes, there aren't many high street sellers of such bikes, or if they are selling the choice isn't massive, but that doesn't mean they're impossible to get hold of.</p> <p>Is it fashion? Possibly partly. Cross bikes have become popular, but one reason is because they are a bit faster than a mountain bike, but made more sturdy than a road bike, with the ability to put wider tyres on, and if you want to add mudguards, and they're also a more comfortable position than a true 'road' bike, so they can turn very easily into 'transport'.</p> <p>My Kaff that I commute on I added guards to and a rack, but if it was in a shop window, guardless and rackless, it would be seen as a sportive bike, or cross, or the like. SO also, what is in the window is not necessarily what the bike can become, and many people will be a guardless bike because they like that particular bike, and then <em>add</em> the transport extras.</p> <p>Basically, what I'm trying to say is that we can choose to see heavier, sturdier, Dutch-style bikes as 'transport' that shows a place has a cycling culture; but in reality <em>any bike whatsoever</em> can be, and is, transport. I don't want a Dutch bike personally, does that mean I don't use a bike for transport, or have become a victim of 'fashion'? No, it just means I've got bikes that suit me and suit my purposes (the Kaff especially has been an evolution to that point).</p> <p>No matter what you ride etc etc...</p> <p>On the OP I'm not sure I agree with the article. I think suggesting a lack of access to 'transport' bikes as being a barrier to everyday biking is very very like the line that people not dressed in normal clothes for cycling are a barrier to everyday cycling. I think 'trasnport' bikes of that kind are a <em>consequence</em> of cycling culture, rather than a creator of it (much like the clothing, if cycling is more popular people feel more comfortable). Which I think Crowriver summed up much better than my waffle when saying:</p> <p>"Until cars become less fashionable/indispensible* then this will not change any time soon.</p> <p>* - This has happened in central London, due to congestion charging creating quieter streets for cycling/walking and a viable public transport network." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200376 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:07:09 +0000 crowriver 200376@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>On EBC specifically: as I understand it the business expansion was built by riding the crest of the wave on the mountain bike craze. EBC were first to market in Scotland with MTBs from the likes of Specialized, Cannondale, etc. as well as their own 'Edinburgh' MTB - the Contour.</p> <p>Spesh in particular have been very loyal to EBC, so they have exclusive retail rights in Edinburgh for that brand. I can imagine this and their Edinburgh 'Revolution' brand form the core of their business.</p> <p>Hybrid bikes are basically 'road' bikes based on MTBs, or with MTB type features: triple chainring, wide range gearing, straight bars... Of course lots of variations have appeared since then: 'fitness' hybrids, 'courier' bikes, 700c hybrids, etc. Many hybrids now resemble old style 'roadsters' minus the hub gear, dynamo lighting and heavy steel frame... As such they have become the default 'transport' bike in the UK, despite often being sold without mudguards, a rack, or lights... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200374 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:56:22 +0000 crowriver 200374@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The answer to all this is basically to do with fashion and marketing. </p> <p>Also, we need to remember that the last time there was a mass market in the UK for bikes as transport was probably the 1950s. After that, the car became transport for most people, and consequently the bike as transport was shunned and seen as old fashioned, not aspirational, etc.</p> <p>Bike manufacturers faced flagging sales and pitched to a different market: sport and leisure. So the bike became something to get fit on (the 'racer', the 'mountain bike', the 'road bike', 'cross bike', etc.) or something for leisure activities (the tourer, the Sunday pootle bike, the child's toy).</p> <p>A few niche retailers (Moulton, Brompton) bucked this trend with their folding and separable bikes which were pitched at commuters (and of course can fit in a car boot).</p> <p>Not much has changed since then, particularly outside London. Some new trends have emerged (Dutch bikes, fixies, 'vintage' bikes, cargo bikes, child carrying bikes) but outside a few exceptional, mostly urban areas (Inner London, Cambridge, York) there isn't really a large enough market for such bikes. Even in Edinburgh.</p> <p>Until cars become less fashionable/indispensible* then this will not change any time soon.</p> <p>* - This has happened in central London, due to congestion charging creating quieter streets for cycling/walking and a viable public transport network. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200373 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:56:00 +0000 wingpig 200373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The majority of EBC products I notice at large within the city are of their hybrid/transport range, with a fair number of their pre-Revolution-label uppercase-sans-serif-"Edinburgh"-logoed-things still out and about, but then I probably only notice that because my old old bike was a flourished-block-capital Revolution and my Gumtree-sparebike is an early-nineties <strong>EDINBURGH</strong> and I am familiar enough with their markings to be able to recognise them from a distance, unlike most other bicycle manufactorers' designs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200371 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:46:01 +0000 steveo 200371@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My non-mudguarded, non-racked, non-upright, lightishweight, non-dynamo-lighted, drop-barred, racing bike has been primarily transport with occasional "sport" outings for the last five years. Add the Carradice and I can lug a surprising amount of stuff too.</p> <p>Need to go see about the CDF though... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200370 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:43:19 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 200370@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In fairness I used my non-mudguarded, non-racked, non-upright, lightishweight, non-dynamo-lighted, drop-barred, cross bike for transport last night. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200369 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:40:05 +0000 fimm 200369@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wingpig I thought you were referring to the full-sized-wheeled things that live in the window, some of which would also fit your description as "noticeably purposeful transport-thing". I've no idea why I thought you were dissing folders!<br /> My apologies. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200367 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:36:44 +0000 wingpig 200367@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote>" BikeTrax usually have at least one noticeably purposeful transport-thing in their window."<br /> <em>I think that's unfair to BikeTrax - unless you are not including folders as noticeably purposeful transport-things... My Brompton is the only bike I own that has mudguards, and is indeed the bike I use as a transport-thing.</em></blockquote></p> <p>You'll have to explain how you think I'm being unfair to BikeTrax.<br /> Folders are not usually fairy-whisker roadie things, so are noticeably purposeful transport-things. Even one of the racier Airnimals would be more practical than a fairy-whisker roadie thing, due to its transportability. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200366 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:28:38 +0000 weezee 200366@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I ended up going to York to buy my Dutch bike last year as I was looking for more than 5 gears in an internal hub. Apart from Laidback bikes, there was no one else who was catering to my needs i.e. I didn't want to drop £600+ on a Pashley in pretty 'patriotic' colours from Bike Coop. I have been struck how some cities seem to have more of a Dutch/utility bike culture - Dublin is crawling with a variety of beaten up Dutch bikes. There are shops there which refub, build and import that style of bike and once they are out in the wild, people try them and see the benefits. Also bike schemes help shift perceptions about what a transport bike should be like. I would love to see more options in Edinburgh for bike buyers. Even in the bike coop or Evans you have to walk past a lot of sporty stuff to get to anything transport-y. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200365 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:27:22 +0000 steveo 200365@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Where can I get a Batavus Favoriet?</em></p> <p>eMail Batavus and ask why they have no retailers in Edinburgh. There is a simple reason you'll never have to ask where I can buy a Specialized or a Canondale. If EBC went bust tomorrow the importers of Spec or 'Dale would have a sales rep in all the other bike shops by Friday asking who wants to stock them. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200364 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:26:00 +0000 fimm 200364@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em> BikeTrax usually have at least one noticeably purposeful transport-thing in their window.</em>"<br /> I think that's unfair to BikeTrax - unless you are not including folders as noticeably purposeful transport-things... My Brompton is the only bike I own that has mudguards, and is indeed the bike I use as a transport-thing.</p> <p>(I do want to get mudguards for the road bike. The other bike is definitely a fair weather creature...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15509#post-200362 Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:23:28 +0000 steveo 200362@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Maybe the Dutch bike firms should do a big marketing push and tell people what they want, works for Apple. </p>