http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Should Spokes Advocate the Two-Stage Right Turn? en Tue, 19 May 2026 05:30:06 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194&page=2#post-215659 Sun, 03 Apr 2016 12:29:12 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 215659@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Utrechtcyclist Looks straightforward to me, but I grew up in the continental tradition so I'm not sure how it is for UK people.</p> <p>One big question is always what are the alternatives. It's much better than people having to leave the bike lane and get into the right filter lane. If the side road has a protected bike lane, then the waiting area should also be off-road, but if the side road doesn't have a protected lane (like here) it seems much better to have the waiting area on-road as well (there isn't any conflict here); otherwise you have to join the carriageway in the middle/end of the junction just when the cars get green which most UK motorists wouldn't expect.</p> <p>A detail is that it should be marked clearly, I can't really see that in the figure. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194&page=2#post-215657 Sun, 03 Apr 2016 11:10:04 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 215657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks everyone for the comments so far about two stage turns in general. I found a picture that looks like the kind of thing that Spokes might choose to advocate.</p> <p>Take a look at the picture at the top of <a href="http://lcc.org.uk/articles/fatal-junction-proves-the-need-for-superhighways-and-space-for-cycling">this article</a> by the London Cycling Campaign.</p> <p>Ignore almost everything about this picture (particularly the awful the off desire line staggered pedestrian crossings, and the fact that it's a two way segregated cycle lane rather than one way), I'm interested in the box labeled 'waiting areas for turning cyclists'. Cyclists coming east along New Bridge Street wait there before turning south into Fleet Street (I'm assuming north is up).</p> <p>This set up might be a bit confusing for cyclists at first. It doesn't feel as nice as the kind of good kerb segregated waiting area that can be built for two stage right turns at bigger junctions. Do you feel safe waiting in that box? </p> <p>On the plus side it is something that can be built without taking away pavement space from pedestrians and is designed for when you're turning into small streets where there isn't necessarily a lot of space (or a lot of cyclists turning). I've seen and used this kind of facility in Holland.</p> <p>Imagine now that there was a junction in Edinburgh of a minor road with wide avenue that is to get segregated cycle lanes down each side and will potentially soon have trams going down it. Would we welcome the addition of this two stage option in addition to the ASL which is already in the plans? </p> <p>I personally would always take the two stage option over crossing tram tracks with traffic breathing down my neck, but am keen for more opinions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194&page=2#post-215109 Thu, 24 Mar 2016 07:38:54 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 215109@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Two-stage turns and simultaneous green are not mutually exclusive. You can have a two-stage turn in phase with the motor traffic light sequence, but additionally also have cyclists-only simultaneous green phases.</p> <p>Problem is, if I understand correctly, the simultaneous green needs a change of law, so the council doesn't have this option.</p> <p>Many junctions would be much easier to cross if cyclists were allowed to use the pedestrian green phase (some already do, but that's technically red light jumping), they dont actually need a completely separate cycling phase (which would make the whole signal cycle longer).</p> <p>Could the law be changed to allow that? Of course there would be the worry that cyclists then bomb at 30mph through a junction packed with people, the UK is a bit dogmatic about cyclists-pedestrian conflicts.</p> <p>Another problem with simultaneous green is what to do with cyclists who want to go straight ahead. Do they also have to wait for the simultaneous green phase (in which case you have to stop at most junctions...), or can they go on during the motor traffic greens (which, in the UK system, leads to confusion for protected lanes but is standard on the continent).</p> <p>In the Hembrow example video, if I see this correctly, all cyclists have to stop first and can <em>only</em> go during the green scramble phase (that's what Wagenbuur doesn't like...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215107 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 23:55:37 +0000 Cyclingmollie 215107@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Based on the implication that experts like David Hembrow don't seem to be consulted by practitioners like TfL does it make any difference whether Spokes support it or not?</p> <p>Rather than support a design which is based on the kind of maneouvre I have made in the past out of sheer desperation I think they should shoot for the moon and support simultaneous green. At least that looks like the kind of system a progressive country would adopt. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215082 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 17:52:30 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 215082@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>^^^^ this </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215074 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:46:28 +0000 paulmilne 215074@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If we were serious about the "hierarchy of travel" then it wouldn't be how we safely fit cycling into a junction dominated by cars, but how to most safely fit cars into a pedestrian/cycling junction. I expect we'd have a completely different set of solutions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215049 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:38:18 +0000 wingpig 215049@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Not the 270° example as official cursed by Hembrow. Tight turns are not convenient and there are enough tight-turns-in-narrow-lanes even on the few examples of segregated infrastructure we now have.<br /> There are some junctions where a 'hook turn' (Copenhagen compromise?) might work, but the way our staggered crossing de-prioritise pedestrians means that (without signal phase modifications) reaching the ASL/front-of-the-queue of the traffic waiting to go left-to-right across the path of someone turning right 90° could involve crossing over a pedestrian green. I think I first heard of them as a thing when reading up on New Zealand's road laws prior to visiting in 2008. They're not a thing many road users over here would expect and aren't much better than getting-off-and-pushing-across - sometimes people might feel safer doing that, especially where a right turn involves crossing multiple lanes to get to the right-turn lane, but to officially advocate it runs the risk of officially accepting inadequate consideration/sidelining. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215042 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:11:43 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 215042@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A two-stage turn does not imply a jug handle. Most don't. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215031 Wed, 23 Mar 2016 10:59:07 +0000 dougal 215031@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This seems to suppose that there *is* a cross road to join with your jug handle. The two nasty junctions I can think of on Leith Walk (Pilrig Street and Montgomery/Annandale) would be ill-served by this setup. The MacDonald/Brunswick junction is the only major crossing that this would fit without tons of extra signposts and explanatory markings. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215008 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:40:09 +0000 gembo 215008@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This might be a bit too much for those not quite convinced about segregated routes? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-215007 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:32:11 +0000 i 215007@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>An important part of the protected junction is having a free left turn, this compensates somewhat for a two stage right turn. </p> <p>In Groningnen, the SG junction has a counter which shows how long your long wait is. I was frustrated by the lack of free right turn there!</p> <p>The wait with SG might not be so bad if it was double phase like with the pedestrian crossings. The crossing time can be shorter than for the pedestrian phase. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214995 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:13:54 +0000 chdot 214995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"certainly out of rush hour"</p> <p>Or - 'especially at (pedestrian) rush hour'. </p> <p>Just come through Bridges/Royal Mile, definitely double ped phase. </p> <p>Should have timed it, didn't seem long at all. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214994 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 18:08:56 +0000 jonty 214994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's really no excuse for most simple junctions in Edinburgh not to be double-pedestrian-phase, certainly out of rush hour. At the very least, they could use the sensors on the modern lights to cut phases short when possible. It's very frustrating to cautiously cross on a red man that could have been green if the lights weren't giving a prolonged green phase to a totally empty road. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214990 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:47:05 +0000 Roibeard 214990@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@fimm - you may be mistaken on that one, it's a straightforward, east/west then north/south then pedestrian phase junction.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214989 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:39:31 +0000 fimm 214989@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm pretty sure the Melville Drive / Causewayside / Hope Park Terrace / Hope Park Crescent junction at the eastern end of the Meadows has a double pedestrian phase. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214988 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:27:37 +0000 sallyhinch 214988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Pedestrians of course can legally cross against the light (at their own risk) whereas if you're on a bike and have a dedicated light then it's illegal to cross on the red light. So bikes and cars can be more inconvenienced by a long wait for a green signal than pedestrians, unless it's a very busy junction. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214987 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:21:59 +0000 Roibeard 214987@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Royal Mile has that at the junction with George IV Bridge and at North Bridge, and I've seen it operational outside of the festivals (no idea how it's triggered).</p> <p>Other junctions can have partial pedestrian phases, in conjunction with filters, such that there isn't a single all stop where pedestrians can cross in all directions, but more of a rolling pedestrian phase. However this is definitely done to facilitate traffic flow rather than pedestrian convenience...</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214986 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:21:14 +0000 sallyhinch 214986@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Copenhagen compromise - the 'jug handle turn' is that to turn left (right, in the UK) you first turn right (left, in the UK) off the protected lane into the side street, and then join the queue of traffic waiting to go across the road you've just been cycling along. That way there's no special pocket needed for cyclists to sit in but it's not exactly intuitive as I discovered when I visited Copenhagen.</p> <p>However I think many of our junctions are big enough that we can provide space for waiting cyclists though. And removing all that sweeping tarmac will slow turning cars, making left and right hooks less likely as well. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214985 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:19:11 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 214985@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I think the one at George IV over to the Mound is a double ped phase all year round? might be wrong though, little while since I've been through. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214984 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:18:18 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 214984@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks!</p> <p>It would be interesting to try double ped phases in other junctions (Royal Mile/South Bridge in August is really a bit of a special case...). Could be a huge improvement for peds. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214983 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:07:17 +0000 Min 214983@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But only in August.. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214982 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:07:00 +0000 chdot 214982@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"more than one pedestrian phase in the signal cycle?"</p> <p>Royal Mile. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214981 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:06:38 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 214981@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Stephan - we started with a specific junction and then went on to general questions. I think we're all agreed that in places like Tolcross there should be a protected two stage right turn, so perhaps we had in mind situations like the crossing of Leith Walk and Brunswick road, where there isn't masses of pavement space to put the waiting cyclists in.</p> <p>As for double pedestrian phases, this happens as the junction of south bridge with the Royal mile. But it's the only example I know, and I don't think there's any prospect of getting a double cycle phase put in on Leith walk! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214979 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:53:22 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 214979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Question: Are there any UK junctions with more than one pedestrian phase in the signal cycle? Something like green for East-West, then pedestrian green, then green for N-S, then another pedestrian phase, then E-W again? That would cut down waiting times by half without increasing cycle lengths much. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214977 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:41:35 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 214977@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@UtrechtCyclist Thanks. I had understood your question as a general preference, not about a particular junction. For a specific junction, I think one really has to look at the detailed situation, how much space there is and how much cycle/pedestrian/motor traffic is going in different directions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214976 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:27:24 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 214976@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@cc "you only have to wait for ages if the council deliberately decides to make you wait for ages."</p> <p>I'd be interested in examples of reasonably busy junctions where pedestrians don't have to wait long for the pedestrian phase.</p> <p>Continental junctions have shorter average waiting times because the pedestrian phase is parallel to the general traffic phase, so just under half the time it's green, the maximum waiting time is half a signal cycle and the average wait is a quarter of a signal cycle.</p> <p>UK style crossings require all other traffic to stop. 30 pedestrians can cross in 3 seconds, but 30 cars in one lane need a minute (assuming 2 seconds per car), so there is huge pressure to make the car phase as long as possible and the pedestrian phase as short as possible. At the KB junction e.g. the car phases are over 2 minutes, the pedestrian/cycle phase a few seconds. The maximum wait is a full signal cycle and the average wait is half a full signal cycle.</p> <p>When cycling, the simultaneous green phase model is even worse, because stopping and starting uses more energy. In the continental model, half of the time you arrive at green and can keep going. Often you can modify your speed and get a green phase. For a simultaneous green system, you almost always arrive at red, as Wagenbuur describes. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214975 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:24:58 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 214975@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks for the links Sally, I hadn't seen the stuff from Wagenbuur before.</p> <p>Stephan, I'm struggling to remember the context in which we were discussing them, but I think in current council plans for either Leith Walk or the E-W route there are places where right turning cyclists would be expected to leave the protected lane and use an ASL. I should also add that we're talking about cyclists leaving a segregated cycle lane to a road with little cycle infrastructure, it's not quite clear where cyclists turning right would be expected to wait, it wouldn't be possible or desirable to take any space away from the pavements.</p> <p>CC - I'm also for whatever is quick and convenient and safe. The problem is that sometimes I struggle to work out what this means we should be asking for in practice! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214974 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 15:59:59 +0000 cc 214974@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>As far as I understand, this allows cycles to go across pedestrian lights when pedestrians have a green man</em>"</p> <p>Here's what David Hembrow says, <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/simultaneous%20green">taken from his site here</a>:<br /> "Simultaneous Green gives cyclists <strong>their own green phase</strong> during which they may travel in all directions at once, including diagonally, following their own desire line across the junction." (my emphasis)</p> <p>I'm not sure that simultaneous green would be safe in Edinburgh, even if cycle-only light phases were possible - for example who's going to want to turn into or out of West Savile Terrace across the path of kamikaze students bombing down Mayfield Road?</p> <p>Re waiting for ages: you only have to wait for ages if the council deliberately decides to make you wait for ages. </p> <p>I'm for whatever is quick and convenient. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214972 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 15:41:23 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 214972@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@sallyhinch Interesting - Wagenbuur's argument is also that they lead to longer signal cycles with short green phases and long waiting time for cyclists...</p> <p>@UtrechtCyclist Reading the question again, I think I don't understand what you're asking. How do ASL-only junctions work with protected bike lanes? Do people then have to leave the bike lane if they want to make a turn? Surely turning right is the most difficult bit where people need a protected space? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16194#post-214971 Tue, 22 Mar 2016 15:16:56 +0000 sallyhinch 214971@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interestingly, the 'all ways green' isn't universally loved in the Netherlands - Mark Wagenbuur (Bicycle Dutch) didn't seem too keen on them when he visited Groningen recently. <a href="https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/groningen-cycling-city-of-the-netherlands/" rel="nofollow">https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/groningen-cycling-city-of-the-netherlands/</a></p> <p>This site is quite good at explaining (to a US audience) how junctions work with segregated infrastructure <a href="http://www.protectedintersection.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.protectedintersection.com/</a> with links to more resources, including Pedestrianise London's visualisation of how they might work in a UK context</p> <p>I certainly wouldn't advocate an ASL-only approach to junctions. Ultimately if would be nice if the ASL became irrelevant, but even as segregated infrastructure becomes more common I expect we'll hang on to them to keep people happy </p>