http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Bristol ParkRun joggers face being charged to use paths" en Fri, 19 Jun 2026 07:52:20 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216997 Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:14:29 +0000 Stickman 216997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>From Twitter:</p> <p>"@Leroy_edi</p> <p>@Edinburgh_CC just checking: you are not planning on doing same as Stoke Gifford parish council re #ParkRun charging? (#Cramond) #runchat</p> <p>@edinhelp</p> <p>@Leroy_edi Hi. This isn't something we do. Most sporting events are encouraged in our parks &amp; greenspaces free of charge. Thanks, ^La." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216881 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 22:16:51 +0000 acsimpson 216881@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Regarding the company structure I don't think the guy founding Parkrun has made much money directly from parkrun <u>UK</u> (I suspect this is the parkrun ltd entity) other than his wife working for them. However I think he may own the patent on the timing technology they use which is licensed to parkrun global who do pay fee for it's use.</p> <p>I can't say what the figures are but the idea I got was that Parkrun in the UK is given the technology for free.</p> <p>Parkrun do have a small selection of merchandise for instance they sell barcode cards (either credit card or keyring size) which are far more durable that a home printed barcode. I don't know if the income from these is reserved for a certain purpose but I think the details that came with it suggested that it goes to Parkrun Ltd.</p> <p>Google's Cache has a copy of an about us page which is no longer on parkrun: <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9eJF12n2_1gJ:www.parkrun.org.uk/aboutus/organisation/">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9eJF12n2_1gJ:www.parkrun.org.uk/aboutus/organisation/</a><br /> "In crude terms parkrun owns the results and runners database (protecting this significant resource from commercial exploitation), and is responsible for interacting with our runners and volunteers. UKTT still exists but is only responsible for providing technical services to parkrun" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216878 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 21:59:02 +0000 acsimpson 216878@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've got a few thoughts to add having read through this thread but I'm afraid I can't remember who they are all responses to. Some of this may now be outdated as it comes from around 2013 when I read some of the background information when starting to become a parkrun regular.</p> <p>Local Parkruns are themselves required to raise half the cost of setting up a new Parkrun with the rest then coming from a central fund. At the time the total cost was £6,000 to set up a run. It sounds like there is now more flexibility in this structure, presumably as the areas which can afford/justify raising £3,000 fluctuates with time.</p> <p>Regarding if/how many councils fund parkruns I know that Cumbria Council has made significant contributions/outright payments to start at least one parkrun. This included allowing a member of their staff time to setup the parkrun in question, although by the time it started and I spoke to her, she was an ex-member of staff and running the parkrun in her own time.</p> <p>Crammond parkrun has a reasonable central core of co-ordinators. One of which turns up hours before everyone else and cuts the grass around the start/finish to keep it well manicured. The only real damage I am aware of is the finishing funnel which was once grass but with 500+people walking on it every week is now a well word desire line down the edge of a fence. As others have mentioned Crammond is a good space for the run with wide paths and reasonably good at allowing others along the path other than a very brief period (&lt;1 minute) at the start. Otherwise there is a parallel path along the front others can use to ensure they can keep walking while the runners progress along the main path. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216850 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 16:00:32 +0000 urchaidh 216850@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When FoFP asked about a collection previously ParkRun suggested we'd be wasting our time as very few of the runners would likely carry change. FoFP pointed out that if they were warned there was going to be a voluntary collection in advance (maybe through PR's excellent communications) they might bring some change, and FoFP would be happy to take it before the run. Silence followed.</p> <p>(edit: we == Friends of Figgate park) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216848 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:51:38 +0000 The Boy 216848@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A noble enough stance, WC. Personally I'd have seen the 'we don't allow it' response and just gone straight out with me bucket.</p> <p>Then again, I seem to have a very low tolerance of the sort of entitlement PR seem to display. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216847 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:49:36 +0000 chdot 216847@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm sure they'll 'let' you - for a %. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216846 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:31:26 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216846@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Exactly, and that's our fallback, but we still want to try and be collaborative, as well as giving the people who are running a real sense of the benefits of the park (for those who travel to run). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216843 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:27:50 +0000 The Boy 216843@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Possibly silly question, but what is stopping the Friends from shaking a few buckets? PR don't allow it, but who cares? It's a public venue. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216836 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:42:39 +0000 steveo 216836@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry fimm, misunderstood. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216834 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:31:41 +0000 fimm 216834@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I do know what "Couch to 5k" is - I'd just not come across it as a running club before! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216832 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:24:03 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 216832@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"She would be happy to put some money in a bucket 'if it went to looking after the Park'."</p> <p>That's the sort of feedback we've been getting from Parkrunners themselves (before a Friends post was removed from the Parkrun FB page). The runners themselves are definitely aware, and willing to help (we had 3 or 4 stayed behind to help out at our last couple of litterpicks, and I got talking to a guy early one Sunday who had only learned of the park from the Parkrun, and had come back with his binoculars for the birdlife). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216829 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:20:49 +0000 Klaxon 216829@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Grass damage from repeated usage over the same area is permanent. Grass only takes so much wear and dies away - needing resewn, cordoned off and left to rest. The alternatives are leaving a dead area as seen on many 'cut corners' or paving a desire line. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216827 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:15:16 +0000 steveo 216827@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em> "NHS couch to 5k"</em></p> <p>Its basically an interval session for inactive/non runners. Over the course of few weeks it takes one from walking with a few jogs interspersed to a full 5k run. </p> <p>Got me started last year its fairly popular and at least the first few weeks are pretty effective. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216825 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:06:10 +0000 chdot 216825@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just met someone who does the PR in Figgie Park. </p> <p>She is conscious that there is some running on the verge at the start. </p> <p>She is aware that this causes "some" damage. </p> <p>She would be happy to put some money in a bucket 'if it went to looking after the Park'.</p> <p>(True anecdote.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216819 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:58:22 +0000 fimm 216819@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Well, last Saturday's Edinburgh (Crammond) park run results are <a href="http://www.parkrun.org.uk/edinburgh/results/latestresults/">here</a>: a crude count gives me 130ish out of 505 finishers with a club listed - not only athletic clubs but also triathletes and jogscotland (the largest number) and "NHS couch to 5k" whatever that is. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216818 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:36:42 +0000 Min 216818@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>At some point I should do some work today... </em></p> <p>Yes, sorry. I want to get my thoughts down while still fresh but please feel free to ignore this until you have time!</p> <p>I do not believe anyone is drawing a massive salary. However, they are drawing A salary and I think this makes a difference.</p> <p>Lets look at a sliding scale on usage of a "free" resource (that is not free to maintain). All IMHO of course. </p> <p>1. I run round a park with a few friends two days a week. Fine.</p> <p>2. I organise 10 of my colleagues to run round the park twice a week. Fine.</p> <p>3. I organise 250 of my colleagues to run round the park twice a week. Well you know, I would absolutely expect noises to be made about this by the council and by local residents. I would expect to have to negotiate continued use of the park.</p> <p>4. The 10 of my colleagues in 2. are paid to organise for 250 of someone else's colleagues to run around the park twice a week. That is a no brainer to me. Claiming that you are doing it for free whilst drawing a salary, no matter how modest is just not true. The volunteers are doing it for free but Parkrun is not.</p> <p>Futhermore, I would like to see some evidence of <em>how many of these 250 would be inactive</em> if not for my initiative and how many were already runners who were just participating in my "free" event. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216816 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:30:26 +0000 Morningsider 216816@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The difference is, kids have to get to school and the benefits of getting there on foot or by bike are far wider than personal health benefits. In addition, the alternatives (principally car) are actively damaging to health and the wider environment - and the associated road maintenance costs would exceed anything caused by pedestrians and cyclists. Councils have a financial incentive to get people out of their cars - although many don't seem to act if that was the case.</p> <p>How may park runners are the chronically obese. Park run's website indicates that more than 50% of runners are not members of running clubs - meaning that a sizeable minority are. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216814 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:17:07 +0000 Stickman 216814@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>define "massive salary"</em></p> <p>Usual definition is "more than I currently earn" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=4#post-216813 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:14:29 +0000 Dave 216813@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>+1 on the above. I don't have any special insight on what park run is like to deal with when you cross swords with them, I can easily believe whatever people say about it.</p> <p>It seems to me that they're arguing from a position of considerable high ground though.</p> <p>Let's imagine that Spokes arranged a weekly "cycle bus" style thing for kids to get to school. However many kids took part and put some kind of strain on public resources, I fundamentally disagree that they should be surcharged. It doesn't really matter if someone in Spokes is getting a retainer or Specialised are chucking in some sponsorship.</p> <p>The way this has been discussed in the wider world, you'd think we've forgotten that 2/3 of adults in this country are clinically overweight... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216811 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:14:06 +0000 The Boy 216811@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>define "massive salary". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216808 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:59:16 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 216808@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've no idea how much the directors of Parkrun get paid. If it's a huge amount then that changes things. But it has twelve paid staff who facilitate the running of Parkrun nationwide, which contrasts with 8000 people who volunteered last weekend to make last Saturday's parkrun happen.</p> <p>I'd be totally against an organisation leeching off public resources to pay its directors massive salaries while masquerading as a non profit organisation. I don't know for sure, but I really don't think that's whats happening with Parkrun (and if it was the Guardian would have run an expose).</p> <p>The moral high ground is difficult. People often complain of cyclists being 'smug'. Perhaps parkrun got part of it's PR strategy wrong, but if it's line is to consistently point out what parkrun does to encourage non-active people to get active, while stating that it doesn't believe this could happen if it had to pay to use parks, that seems reasonable to me.</p> <p>At some point I should do some work today... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216807 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:37:35 +0000 Min 216807@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>If you think that the benefits of your activity for the public significantly outweigh the drawbacks then applying for a grant that makes it less likely that your activity can continue in the future would not be a wise thing to do. </em></p> <p>You know, I can almost understand that but it is also my problem. What you have here is a company. Not-for-profit but still a company, with paid staff coming in and using a public resource then rushing to the moral high ground when challenged. I just can't like it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216806 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:28:17 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 216806@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Your right, cyclists using MMW and Parkrun using a local park are not analagous situations.</p> <p>I just meant to talk about why parkrun refusing to sign someone else's grant application on their behalf doesn't mean they're arrogant and uncooperative. If you think that the benefits of your activity for the public significantly outweigh the drawbacks then applying for a grant that makes it less likely that your activity can continue in the future would not be a wise thing to do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216805 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:19:39 +0000 Min 216805@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The use of MMW by cyclists is only analogous to the normal use of parks by people. If SPOKES wanted to hold a large event every Saturday and Sunday with hundreds of cyclists then I would think it only right to charge a small fee for that. It comes back to the <em>over</em>use of resources again. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216804 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 12:14:48 +0000 UtrechtCyclist 216804@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Regarding the grant application, I think Parkrun as an organisation believe that if they start applying for grants for park maintenance then it's not long before council's make their access to the park contingent on winning these grants. In an environment where funding is difficult to come by this would likely lead to the closure of a lot of parkruns. </p> <p>Which is separate from the argument of whether or not parkrun is a good thing, but if you believe it's a good thing (as the organisers clearly do) then putting in place a process whereby parkrun only exists in places where it can get grants is not good.</p> <p>If the council were to say to Spokes that catering for the cyclists on MMW costs money and what they're going to do is in principle charge every cyclist passing through but apply for a grant in Spokes name that covers this cost for the first five years, then you create an environment in which it's likely that cyclists have to pay to use MMW in the future. You also significantly weaken your ability to argue against such a charge in the future having already gone along with applying for a grant. I don't think this is being uncooperative, it's securing the future of an activity which you believe (rightly or wrongly) provides a significant net public good. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216788 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:24:02 +0000 chdot 216788@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Personally I think the city council and government ought to be more proactive and facilitate this."</p> <p>They certainly should, but are stuck (in the mud) with all sorts of inertia and self-invented excuses. </p> <p>The whole saga of unreasonably charges for road closures for Playing Out is a small example. </p> <p>Perhaps ParkRun could be asked to bring its expertise and volunteers to Holyrood Park every Sunday and other groups be asked to bring equipment/people for demonstrating/offering various sports and activities. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216787 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:23:26 +0000 paddyirish 216787@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So Dave, if the scouts came to a football pitch expecting to play a league match and a few kids are playing an informal kickabout, you would have the right to kick the kids off the pitch and play on it for free?</p> <p>Think that is why there are fees- so that council can say that from 3-5pm on a Saturday afternoon, the scouts have full access to the park.</p> <p>From a position of little knowledge I was sympathetic to Parkrun, but from a position of a little more knowledge, I've lost an awful lot of that sympathy.</p> <p>Think that it reminds me of the damage done by events like the 3 Peaks race and Caledonian Challenge.</p> <p>I though sportives were a little better (theoretically leaving not much more than tyre tracks, but sadly thousands of gel wrappers and a number of inner tubes), but having entered and enjoyed the etape Caledonia, I subsequently heard a lot more about how it was run and who it was run for and wouldn't enter again. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216785 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:10:06 +0000 amir 216785@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"None of this should be taken as criticism of Parkrun, it's just there's a perception of Parkrun as a grass-roots movement rather than a business which I feel is misleading. "</p> <p>I think that's useful. We should separate out (difficult though it is) the nature of the organisation from the activities/events.</p> <p>If people need group activity in order to do exercise regularly, that ought to be encouraged. There are awkward issues that need to be accommodated but public health is hugely important. Personally I think the city council and government ought to be more proactive and facilitate this. For example shutting streets to traffic on a Sunday, like what happens abroad. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216784 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:09:27 +0000 Morningsider 216784@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Dave - if you took a BB company out for a kick-about in a park that would be fine. If the Company football team was playing as part of an organised league, using a pitch in the park, then you would have to pay. </p> <p>Failure to pay could lead to you being excluded from the park by a Council officer. If you refused to leave then, on summary conviction, you could be fined.</p> <p>Details set out in the Park Management Rules:</p> <p><a href="http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/62/management_rules_for_parks_and_greenspaces" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/62/management_rules_for_parks_and_greenspaces</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16254&page=3#post-216783 Fri, 15 Apr 2016 11:06:50 +0000 chdot 216783@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The customers are advertisers and sponsors and the runners are the commodity being delivered to the customers."</p> <p>Very true, and such customers are usually wary of controversy or conflict - which is why I'm surprised that PR is so keen to manufacture its own 'moral high ground'. </p> <p>Though perhaps the advertisers/sponsors understand, as most businesses try to externalise their costs. </p>