http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: New traffic signs regulations en Tue, 19 May 2026 06:42:25 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221022 Thu, 26 May 2016 12:59:40 +0000 chdot 221022@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"That dismount sign is (reasonably?) new I think."</p> <p>The actual actual sign might be. </p> <p><a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5934" rel="nofollow">http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5934</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221020 Thu, 26 May 2016 12:53:36 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 221020@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That dismount sign is (reasonably?) new I think. Certainly when I rode that way regularly a number of years back there was nothing, and you had to just guess. Just another example of the hotchpotch piecemeal way we go about these things in this city/country. There's not a light sequence that takes that contraflow into account, so most just waited for the green man and either walked or pedalled across.</p> <p>Generally something parked in it as well, but the main problem I had was entering it, with cars trying to overtake you, not expecting you to want to turn right into what they saw as a one-way street. It took a very strong primary from quite early on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221011 Thu, 26 May 2016 12:30:56 +0000 Rob 221011@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've always found <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9623937,-3.1969239,3a,75y,225.75h,86.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBypCEbIY_yuafCyPbpFbpA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">this one</a> a bit curious. Are you supposed to dismount?</p> <p>EDIT: hah, never looked at it from the <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9622543,-3.1971901,3a,75y,34.01h,65.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJbFb1wEFN2Ca4PTJ-0H1Hg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">other side</a>. Yes, you are. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221010 Thu, 26 May 2016 12:29:56 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 221010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Wilmington's Cow: OK I get the hint. Sorry. Bye. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221007 Thu, 26 May 2016 12:23:57 +0000 wingpig 221007@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's an except-bikes one-way on Hill Place, which I use rarely.</p> <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/Hx4bbB"><img src="https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7429/27262058455_7bfceb367e_n.jpg"></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221002 Thu, 26 May 2016 11:30:44 +0000 Morningsider 221002@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The UK's urban roads only "work" as everyone normally follows the rules of the road. Yes, there are lots of times this doesn't happen - but generally people behave pretty well. You can tell this is the case as someone misbehaving is pretty obvious to those around them. As a result, we all become used to expecting things to happen based on those rules - stop at red, going on green, driving on the left, giving way at junctions etc.</p> <p>Given this, I think riding the wrong way down a one-way street is both really obvious law breaking and also really dangerous - as people simply don't expect to encounter someone cycling the wrong way down a road.</p> <p>I use the contrafow cycle lane on Canaan Lane regularly and it is great. I wouldn't cycle down a one way street without a clearly defined contrafow lane. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221001 Thu, 26 May 2016 11:14:48 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 221001@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Indeed, and because there's a little less of that around these here parts of late I don't really want to go into it (especially as it's personal stuff with a very good friend).</p> <p>It's also the reason I haven't gone in for any seemingly false equivalence on the thread as well.</p> <p>Life's too short. I'd rather ride my bike and chill. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-221000 Thu, 26 May 2016 11:09:47 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 221000@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Wilmington's Cow "I also suspect it would lead to an argument here, so I'll leave it at that."</p> <p>Well, as you said before, this thread is about "Understanding the needs of others" and "Offering other options and solutions and querying without blind acceptance"... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-220998 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:55:31 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 220998@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Is that for (understandable) 'safety reasons' or are the supremely law-abiding?</em>"</p> <p>Primarily safety. I could go into a long explanation, but they are incredibly legitimate concerns (especially in my friend's personal situation). But I also suspect it would lead to an argument here, so I'll leave it at that. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431&page=2#post-220997 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:53:05 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 220997@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>When there are locations where a lot of people already cycle against the flow, why not make it legal?</em>"</p> <p>Absolutely, yes. They should. It doesn't mean that it's not currently an illegal act, and in some places it annoys the residents. Got to balance priorities, look at why cyclists use that route, if there are alternatives that could be made more appealing etc. It's not black and white.</p> <p>"<em>There's another 'informal' contraflow on Maryfield Place which pretty much works</em>"</p> <p>Informal = illegal. Otherwise law-abiding cyclists. Etc etc.</p> <p>"<em>I don't really understand the fierce opposition here</em>"</p> <p>'Fierce'? Practical. Understanding the needs of others. Understanding the needs of cyclists. Offering other options and solutions and querying without blind acceptance. All of those perhaps. But 'fierce opposition'? In this thread? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220995 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:32:09 +0000 chdot 220995@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The only loss would be approx 6 permit spaces."</p> <p>ThisISEdinburgh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220994 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:30:59 +0000 chdot 220994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"and the residents are really hacked off about it"</p> <p>Is that for (understandable) 'safety reasons' or are the supremely law-abiding? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220993 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:26:00 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 220993@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Roibeard Another point is that the contraflows that I know on the continent have quite a lot of cycle traffic, so everybody expects to meet cyclists. </p> <p>I don't think the Inch is a good example. I had bad and good experiences there, but I also see that some drivers just try to force through against other cars. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220992 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:19:47 +0000 neddie 220992@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Leamington Rd:</p> <p>There are often quite a few pedestrians <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/nCAM15bxovD2">walking on the road</a>, both against and with the flow of traffic (as mentioned by rbrtwtmn). Mostly they are avoiding the narrow, broken and sometimes fouled pavement and being hemmed in by parked cars.</p> <p>Is it so different to have a cyclist going the 'wrong way' on this road, than some pedestrians?</p> <p>Seems to me like a ideal road to be closed to motor traffic. The only loss would be approx 6 permit spaces. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220991 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:18:01 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 220991@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Roibeard There is no short easy answer. While there is also bad driving on the continent, what is much less is the attitude trying to "punish" other road users for perceived mistakes/law breaking which seems not uncommon here - not only among drivers, but also quite a few cyclists, in my experience.</p> <p>All the contraflows that I have seen worked quite well and are not more dangerous than any other road.</p> <p>Just to be clear, cyclists are not automatically allowed to ignore all one-way streets, but the council can decide to exempt cyclists and has to put up the correct signs. Of course councils make a decision where it is safe, and probably wouldn't do it on a dual 70kph (40mph) racecourse.</p> <p>I don't really understand the fierce opposition here. The new regulations just give councils more options to create contraflows where suitable, it doesn't suddenly allow cyclists to ignore laws or something. Still, where a one-way is regularly ignored, it could be an indication that this would be a good location to allow contraflow. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220988 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:05:05 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 220988@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"I'd be cautious about using examples where lots of cyclists ignore the law" - isn't that the point to legalise a situation that is mostly dangerous because people take it onto themselves to punish others? </p> <p>When there are locations where a lot of people already cycle against the flow, why not make it legal? Is that much different from allowing cycling in parks, for example, a few years ago? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220986 Thu, 26 May 2016 10:01:48 +0000 neddie 220986@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Chicken and egg situation.</p> <p>Motorists will continue to charge down one-way streets at the speed limit or greater if no cyclists are ever going to be coming the other way.</p> <p>If cyclists were expected to be coming the other way on <em>all </em>one-way streets, aka continental, perhaps drivers eventually get the message and calm down a bit.</p> <p>It's a bit like taking the child of a druggie mother into care. Without the child she doesn't have much to live for, and spirals deeper &amp; deeper into drugs. With the child, she may decide to clean-up. There is a risk to the child initially, same as there is to cyclists initially. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220985 Thu, 26 May 2016 09:59:25 +0000 crowriver 220985@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's another 'informal' contraflow on Maryfield Place which pretty much works. Many cyclists use it as the alternative side streets require carrying one's bike up a flight of steps to London Road. To my mind it should either be made 'official' as a contraflow, or else through traffic should be stopped from using it, e.g.. by placing a row of bollards at the London Road end. Once upon a year the street was two-way traffic, but was AFAIK made one-way to lessen rat running and to facilitate parking on both sides of the street. It is still used as a rat run, hence why I think it would be good to prevent through traffic. I've been meaning to start up a local campaign about this for years, but never quite got round to it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220980 Thu, 26 May 2016 09:18:40 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 220980@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>this ^^^</p> <p>I've used the Bread Street contraflow <em>bus</em> lane, and had a driver deliberately move into it, drive straight at me, swerve back and shout that I was cycling the wrong way.</p> <p>Essentially you answered your own question by asking further if you were thinking too continental. Simply, yes. Though we need to change matters somehow, so need to start somewhere. But in essence I think <em>at the moment</em> it's more dangerous simply because our drivers are unaware of it, and are generally more aggressive in dealing with perceived wrongs (not even actual wrongs, as in my Bread Street).</p> <p>I'd be cautious about using examples where lots of cyclists ignore the law and say 'no-one has a problem with it'. I've a friend on Valleyfield Street. Prime example of a road where there <em>should</em> be a contraflow given it links to and from the Meadows, but it doesn't, and cyclists still cycle the wrong way down it, and the residents are really hacked off about it. Not that you'd know unless you spoke to someone who lived there. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220974 Thu, 26 May 2016 08:34:38 +0000 Roibeard 220974@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Stephan - serious question this time...</p> <p><em>Why would contraflow cycling be more dangerous than cycling in any narrow street where oncoming cars can't pass? Or am I thinking too continental now?</em></p> <p>On the continent, if you met an oncoming driver on a two-way, single track road, with passing places, would they force a cyclist to dismount/go offroad so that the driver could pass rather than using the passing place on the driver's side?</p> <p>This happens in Edinburgh.</p> <p>Now if the driver perceives the cyclist is "going the wrong way" (regardless of legality), how would the driver react on the continent?</p> <p>I'm guessing that here the driver will force the cyclist off the road, based on my experience, possibly "safely", or possibly through force or causing fear.</p> <p>In and around the Inch, drivers overtaking parked cars (hence on the wrong side of the road) often expect cyclists to vanish, take to the footway, dismount, or even cross the road in front of the driver to use an offside passing place rather than the driver deviate from their path.</p> <p>For such reasons, even if driver behaviour is different on the continent, I'd like to have:</p> <p>1) the tissue of protection offered by oncoming drivers being told, and repeatedly reminded, that cyclists may use the road against the flow of motorised traffic.</p> <p>2) sufficient width to permit safe passing of oncoming drivers, travelling at the speed limit.</p> <p>The alternative to 2 is to play chicken with the driver until they stop, then move round their stationary vehicle.</p> <p>That's my family's approach, but it requires much more assertiveness (and a thick skin for the subsequent abuse) than the average UK resident cares to exercise!</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220968 Wed, 25 May 2016 23:18:11 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 220968@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Why would contraflow cycling be more dangerous than cycling in any narrow street where oncoming cars can't pass? Or am I thinking too continental now? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220967 Wed, 25 May 2016 23:14:20 +0000 Stephan Matthiesen 220967@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Everybody cycles illegally in the wrong direction in David Brewster Rd and nobody seems to have problems with it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220966 Wed, 25 May 2016 23:13:45 +0000 rbrtwtmn 220966@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"is there anywhere it works well in Edinburgh"</p> <p>Yes, it works pretty well on Leamington Road - <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=55.94094&amp;mlon=-3.21052#map=18/55.94094/-3.21052">here</a>.</p> <p>And this isn't even legal.</p> <p>Sure it's not ideal, but with a bit of tweaking it could be made actively safe (and legal).</p> <p>This is used so much that it occurred to me just now to see if it was recorded on Google Streetview. <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/DZV7VpJty782">Here we are I think.</a>. And <a href="https://goo.gl/maps/nCAM15bxovD2">this image</a> helps to see what it looks like at rush hour. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220963 Wed, 25 May 2016 22:41:27 +0000 acsimpson 220963@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Greenroofer, I believe the one way exemption for cyclists applies to the whole length of Foundry Street. They just didn't continue the cycle lane the whole way. It reapears just after the parking bays end at the other end of the street. Your end might be OK but overall it's a very odd exemption. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220962 Wed, 25 May 2016 22:38:29 +0000 Greenroofer 220962@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>...although having looked at in more detail on Streetview, I think I may have been riding the wrong way along some of it. It looks from Google as if the bike route turns off onto a pavement and wanders off at some point, but the signage and paint on the ground are both pretty invisible. Bizarrely, if you follow the road to the end you'll find another contraflow bike lane, so who knows what's supposed to happen? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220960 Wed, 25 May 2016 22:26:11 +0000 Greenroofer 220960@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's also a short bit of road in Dunfermline with a cycle lane contra to the traffic flow. I've never met a car on it, and at present the paint gives out near parked cars at the other end from <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.0749649,-3.4613573,3a,75y,266.24h,77.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9W7Z3IksVNtuO8O_p8Gw2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e3!6m1!1e1">this Streetview image</a>, but it's a useful cut through (a bit like Canaan Lane) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220938 Wed, 25 May 2016 17:53:21 +0000 chdot 220938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"is there anywhere it works well in Edinburgh"</p> <p>Yes. </p> <p>Canaan Lane. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220937 Wed, 25 May 2016 17:27:33 +0000 Klaxon 220937@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I do this somewhat frequently on Hill Place and it's certainly aggrieving to both parties when someone comes the other way.</p> <p>The 'advisory contra flow cycle lane' is always parked in leaving little room to pass. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220936 Wed, 25 May 2016 17:22:01 +0000 mgj 220936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Why would anyone want to cycle against the flow of motorised traffic on a one way street? Without protection/proper markings it would be dangerous in the extreme; is there anywhere it works well in Edinburgh (I'm aware that other traffic systems are available, but we don't live in Holland) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16431#post-220918 Wed, 25 May 2016 15:30:04 +0000 dougal 220918@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"My understanding so far has been that pedestrians have whatever time it takes them to cross (although they should move as fast as can reasonably be expected). When motor traffic gets a green light that still means drivers have to wait until all pedestrians have cleared the junction, as there may still be people with disabilities etc who need longer."</em></p> <p>I can confirm from the weekend's revelry that 30-odd drunken Hibs fans who stop halfway across the road and start dancing are reasonably effective at stopping traffic.</p> <p>The rest of the work was done by the zebra crossing though. Drivers would still happily try to "squeeze past" anyone not dancing on the zebra crossing, so I think it was at least partly the legal standing of "pedestrians on a marked crossing" that prevented the drivers from just barging through in all cases. </p>