http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "JOURNEY times for buses using Greenways have increased by up to 18 minutes" en Thu, 21 May 2026 13:49:48 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286062 Sat, 30 Jun 2018 10:27:11 +0000 hunnymonster 286062@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Forgive my ignorance, but is this not a direct consequence of reducing the operating hours of the bus lanes?</p> <p>Perhaps if they went to the model of Glasgow (7/7/7 - 7am-7pm, 7days per week) the bus journey times might improve (especially if there's a bit of Draconian enforcement, sorry I mean "war on the hard pressed motorist") </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286032 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:28:03 +0000 crowriver 286032@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Googol reveals <a href="https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/379408/response/924033/attach/2/FOISA%20Hawtin%20jan%202017%20final%201.pdf">this FOI response</a> which gives the following historic patronage since LRT became LB:</p> <p> . 2006  107.8 million<br /> . 2007  114 million<br /> . 2008  112.9 million<br /> . 2009  107.3 million<br /> . 2010  108.7 million<br /> . 2011  111.2 million<br /> . 2012  110.7 million<br /> . 2013  115.4 million<br /> . 2014  117.5 million<br /> . 2015  120.5 million </p> <p>So if EEN is to be believed, it would appear LB passengers declined by around 1 million over 2016, before increasing to 121 million? Not quite, according to <a href="https://2lpynq2lfk0d2aeyeo4ep1qf-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2017_Lothian-Annual-Accounts.pdf">LB Annual Report 2017</a>, passengers in 2016 were 119.9 million. So 2017 increase is 1.2 million, not 2 million. That's a 1% increase. As opposed to the 1.6% increase which 2 million would represent (Goodness knows where I plucked 9.8% from - Friday afternoon syndrome!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286030 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:07:17 +0000 crowriver 286030@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Ed1, good point. Lothian Country more than one year old though? So may not account for increase, but East Coast Buses might. Assuming they are included in the LB pasenger figures of course: separate subsidiaries no? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286028 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:03:41 +0000 Ed1 286028@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Lothian Country and East Coast Buses taking over firsts garage may help increase Lothian journeys but this could be consolidation which still may occur in a declining market rather than new journeys. To see if growth would need to take existing routes and also consider the other operators figures to see if taking customers or new journeys. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286024 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:20:07 +0000 crowriver 286024@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>That's a 9.8% increase in passengers for Lothian Buses in one year BTW. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477&page=2#post-286020 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:14:35 +0000 crowriver 286020@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>EEN has helpfully published this article to reduce uncertainty and confusion regarding LRT's patronage:</p> <p>---</p> <p>Passenger numbers on Lothian Buses increase by two million</p> <p>MORE than 121 million passengers travelled on Lothian Buses last year – an increase of two million on the year before.</p> <p>New figures show the publicly-owned firm bucked country-wide trends illustrating a dip in the number of people taking bus journeys.</p> <p>---</p> <p>Continues at: <a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/passenger-numbers-on-lothian-buses-increase-by-two-million-1-4164955" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/passenger-numbers-on-lothian-buses-increase-by-two-million-1-4164955</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-286013 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:34:48 +0000 Morningsider 286013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The 5.8% decrease figure is for the whole of Scotland (comparing January-March 2018 with the same period in 2017). I imagine Lothian Buses know exactly how many passengers they have been carrying without relying on the UK Department for Transport.</p> <p>Figures: <a href="https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/715419/quarterly-bus-statistics-january-to-march-2018.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/715419/quarterly-bus-statistics-january-to-march-2018.pdf</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-286010 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:09:37 +0000 Klaxon 286010@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>5.8 per cent decrease in bus use since the same period last year</em></p> <p>I wouldn't be surprised if much of this drop is from the Leith Walk catchment area due to St James work. I'd make an occasional trip on a bus to town before, whereas this year I have <u>always</u> cycled or walked. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-286008 Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:04:26 +0000 chdot 286008@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>“</p> <p>Traffic congestion in the Capital threatens the reliability of the city’s bus services, according to the managing director of Lothian Buses. </p> <p>Richard Hall told the Evening News that increasing congestion is turning ­customers away from using bus services as the company announced improvements and new routes ahead of the ­reopening of Leith Street, which has been closed since September 2017. </p> <p>Department for Transport statistics show that there has been a 5.8 per cent decrease in bus use since the same period last year, with the city’s nose-to-tail traffic thought to be at fault.</p> <p>“</p> <p><a href="https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/traffic-congestion-a-threat-to-lothian-buses-reliability-1-4761768" rel="nofollow">https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/traffic-congestion-a-threat-to-lothian-buses-reliability-1-4761768</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221943 Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:28:56 +0000 Ed1 221943@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The Edinburgh tram has a conductor on every tram I think, in Germany most trams don’t, don’t think ever been on Edinburgh tram and not asked for a ticket.</p> <p>I think the best example of the European approach in the UK is the DLR no barriers and don’t normally get asked for a ticket such a contrast to the tube. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221899 Fri, 03 Jun 2016 02:45:17 +0000 Murun Buchstansangur 221899@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"@WC so, he dodged £43k of rail fares and when caught out was only forced to pay those fares? That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me."</p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/15/ca-ban-43000-fare-dodger-financial-services-industry-blackrock-jonathan-burrows" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/15/ca-ban-43000-fare-dodger-financial-services-industry-blackrock-jonathan-burrows</a></p> <p>Loss of job &amp; life ban from industry sounds like a pretty good deterrent to me, albeit it could have worked out differently if his name hadn't become public. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221896 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 23:47:04 +0000 acsimpson 221896@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's the fear of the fine which will keep people on the straight and narrow. A quick check of red lights during rush hour will show you that Brit's are quite happy not to follow the rules if they think it wont cost them.</p> <p>The tram seems to be an example of the penalty fare system working. Although in this instance there is a uniformed inspector on each tram so the chances of managing more than a stop without being checked are slim, however the "fine" is only £10. If the fine was higher then the checks could be less frequent and still maintain the same deterrent. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221894 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 22:27:24 +0000 Calum 221894@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Average speeds in the West Country city are a sluggish 14.3mph – worse than London's 14.9mph."</p> <p>I dispute the notion that this is "worse". I like congested motor traffic. The slower the better. Means they can't get up enough speed to kill me. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221886 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 21:36:13 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 221886@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me"</p> <p>Yes. Kinda my point. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221883 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 21:26:59 +0000 Rob 221883@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC so, he dodged £43k of rail fares and when caught out was only forced to pay those fares? That doesn't seem like a deterrent to me. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221882 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 21:22:59 +0000 minus six 221882@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>pay if you can, if not then tickets are just barriers man</em></p> <p>If you expect to be challenged by a kontroller around once a week on average, then you're not going to bother with the schwarzfahren, as it's not cost effective.</p> <p>Skint jobless people not commuting daily might be tempted to chance it for a few stops now and then.</p> <p>Its no hanging matter, and I'm no naive hippy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221879 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 21:03:59 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 221879@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Ditch the barriers, citizens that can pay will pay if the service is efficient."</p> <p>Pretty sure <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2713784/Unmasked-City-high-flier-Jonathan-Burrows-dodged-43-000-rail-fares-paid-3-days.html">this guy</a> could both afford the fares, <em>and</em> thought the service was good enough to use all the time. </p> <p>Citizens that can pay... won't if they know they can get away with it.</p> <p>Certainly when I was a student in France there wasn't an 'ah well, pay if you can, if not then tickets are just barriers man' attitude. Much more crowriver's vision (and very very frequent ticket inspections on buses and metro, and even on the funicular railway to our halls). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221878 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 20:55:33 +0000 minus six 221878@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver often it isn't a criminal offence per se - if you're caught ticketless by a kontroller then you are billed on the spot and obligated to pay the "full fare" which is typically around 60 euros if travelling without an advance ticket.</p> <p>This allows temporarily cashless people to get around, while not stifling everyone else with barriers.</p> <p>It would never catch on in blighty, unfortunately </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221873 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 19:55:55 +0000 Klaxon 221873@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When amongst a group of friends you collectively see inspectors a couple of times a month it's enough to make all but the most determined think twice. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221869 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 19:35:34 +0000 crowriver 221869@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@bax, best not travel by public transport in many other European countries without a ticket. When the undercover ticket inspectors suddenly don their armbands and demand to see your ticket, if you don't have one not only will they haul you off the bus/tram/metro physically at the next stop, you'll also pay a substantial spot fine.</p> <p>Alas the reality is that if the UK was to go all laissez faire on folk paying (see what I did there?) then fare dodging would become an epidemic once passengers realised they could get away with it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221865 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 19:09:59 +0000 minus six 221865@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>UK's miserly obsession with fare dodging is an embarrassment.</p> <p>Ditch the barriers, citizens that can pay will pay if the service is efficient.</p> <p>But that's the dirty little secret, UK PLC wants top dollar for substandard services.</p> <p>Let the underclass ride black, its in everyone's interest for public travel to be fluid.</p> <p>Or is free travel only for the baby boomers.. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221863 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 18:19:32 +0000 Rob 221863@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Related comment:<br /> <a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/comment-it-takes-longer-to-go-anywhere-by-bus-or-car-1-4144475" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/comment-it-takes-longer-to-go-anywhere-by-bus-or-car-1-4144475</a></p> <p><em>"Other steps, like more park and rides, extra train services, and, dare we say it, trams, will likely have a bigger impact."</em></p> <p>No mention of cycling as a congestion reducing option. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221859 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:34:03 +0000 AKen 221859@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Edinburgh's bus stop spacing is also really inconsistent, ranging from half a block (Albert St-Shrub Pl) to half a mile (Elm Row - Waverley Station).</em> </p> <p>There's two in Juniper Green that are about 90m apart. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221858 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:33:24 +0000 steveo 221858@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Aren't bendy buses pretty disastrous for cyclists? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221857 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:29:54 +0000 Klaxon 221857@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We are beyond the point that adding more slow-loading double decker buses will do anything. Bendys are 50% larger and load through three sets of doors.</p> <p>Bendy = 49 seated, 100 standing<br /> Double decker = 75 seated, 25 standing.</p> <p>Fare evasion goes up but the number of bus drivers you need on any given route goes down so you can employ inspectors to compensate. Axle loading (leading cause of potholes!) is reduced a lot.</p> <p>Edinburgh's bus stop spacing is also really inconsistent, ranging from half a block (Albert St-Shrub Pl) to half a mile (Elm Row - Waverley Station). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221855 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:20:20 +0000 Arellcat 221855@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Also from the pen of Prof David Begg:</p> <p><a href="https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-uber-and-online-shopping-have-made-bristol-103358523.html" rel="nofollow">https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-uber-and-online-shopping-have-made-bristol-103358523.html</a></p> <p>"Average speeds in the West Country city are a sluggish 14.3mph – worse than London's 14.9mph."</p> <p>"Traffic congestion is a disease which if left unchecked will destroy the bus sector. If the trend is allowed to continue, then our urban buses will no longer represent a viable mode of transport for the majority of customers." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221849 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 15:22:03 +0000 newtoit 221849@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Buses used to have two doors: one to get on, one to exit. I think they got rid of them because:</p> <p>a) they had to comply with disability legislation and have a flat, no step, hydraulically lowered entrance, plus provide a wheelchair space where the exit door used to be.</p> <p>b) fare dodgers used to get on at the exit doors on busy buses, necessitating conductors who cost money."</p> <p>Well, on a) - I didn't realise that in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland etc there were major issues for the disabled whenever they need to get on or off buses... Guess it's a similar concept to the idea that bus stop bypasses will mean blind people and the elderly can never venture outside!</p> <p>b) is understandable, but I'm still a firm believer in the notion that people are more likely to buy tickets if you make it easier for them. Prepaid tickets that you validate, and the ability to buy before getting on the bus without having to buy £10 worth, would make it easier. Also never quite followed the logic behind having the ticket inspectors getting on the bus as they do now, when you need to pass the driver to get on anyway. </p> <p>I was almost stuck on the bus yesterday when I wanted to get off - having been sat above the rear wheel arch, there was a wheelchair in its bay and a buggy (*heavily armoured pram by the looks of it - whatever happened to strollers?) in its bay, and a full bus of standing passengers. After several polite "excuse mes", the incoming passengers were getting on and I was still stuck at the back of the bus with nobody moving (or having anywhere to move to).</p> <p>General decency in that situation would suggest getting off to get out of the way, then stepping back on. Guessing people are afraid to be told to buy another ticket because they got off?! Same issue in London on the DLR/tube when people insist on standing in the doorway whilst everyone is getting on and off...</p> <p>Damn, this has got me in a bus rage! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221842 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 14:40:33 +0000 sallyhinch 221842@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It looks like TfL's modelling in London showed that as cycling numbers increased, buses would be increasingly delayed if bus lanes were also used as cycling infrastructure </p> <p><a href="http://rachelaldred.org/writing/thoughts/buses-and-bikes-slight-return/" rel="nofollow">http://rachelaldred.org/writing/thoughts/buses-and-bikes-slight-return/</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221841 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 14:40:11 +0000 kaputnik 221841@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>c) they also had some malicious lawsuits where people claimed to have come down the stairs and tried to go through the doors as they were closing and were injured. Apparently these cases were disproved by Lothian's early adoption of fleetwide CCTV, but I recall it being cited in Chipwrapper articles about losing the middle doors.</p> <p>The loss of the middle doors has markedly improved the carriage space on buses for wheelchairs and buggies and prams, encouraging families to use buses and making it less of a lottery for all users as to whether they will be able to get the bus.</p> <p>I would however like to see the "don't stand in front of this line" sign moved to behind the front wheel arches of the bus, as people tend to congregate in the narrowest part of the bus here rather than bother to go upstairs for a seat or shift further back in the lower deck. It really slows down the entry and exit time, particularly as younger backpacking type tourists seem to like to dwell here with glaikit looks on their faces, headphones in and a massive rucksack jabbing everyone who tries to squeeze on or off the bus. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16477#post-221837 Thu, 02 Jun 2016 14:34:41 +0000 crowriver 221837@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Buses used to have two doors: one to get on, one to exit. I think they got rid of them because:</p> <p>a) they had to comply with disability legislation and have a flat, no step, hydraulically lowered entrance, plus provide a wheelchair space where the exit door used to be.</p> <p>b) fare dodgers used to get on at the exit doors on busy buses, necessitating conductors who cost money. </p>