http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Signs and lines to be fitted in Edinburgh city centre 20mph zone en Thu, 21 May 2026 22:03:06 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-228268 Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:23:54 +0000 crowriver 228268@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Living Streets Scot<br /> ‏@LStreetsScot<br /> Year one report shows @Edinburgh_CC school streets pilot is helping kids walk to school </p> <p><a href="https://t.co/S95VPiog1T" rel="nofollow">https://t.co/S95VPiog1T</a></p> <p>From the report (link to download PDF above), my emphasis:</p> <p>3.1 Issues and suggestions were also provided through initial engagement exercises, and follow-on statutory consultation exercises, as well as via service requests and correspondence received from residents and the school community. The main themes to emerge through stakeholder feedback were (in priority order):</p> <p>- <strong>road restrictions will not be/are not obeyed unless the police are present</strong>: 223;<br /> - the problem will move/has moved elsewhere: 142;<br /> - School Streets perceived as beneficial: 129;<br /> - School Streets perceived as an inconvenience: 65;<br /> - the signage is not clear: 48;<br /> - School Streets has made no difference: 35;<br /> - School Streets has helped local residents park more easily: 15; and<br /> - School Streets is causing conflict between parents: 6. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-223491 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 00:26:14 +0000 Jester 223491@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I drove in from the city bypass through Morningside to the city centre last week and noticed that the dashboard display was showing 20mph, in line with the signage which is now in place. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222583 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 11:52:54 +0000 acsimpson 222583@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Any tickets is better than none. If drivers think there is a chance of getting caught then more of them will pay attention to the limit more of the time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222513 Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:13:39 +0000 slowcoach 222513@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC re your FoI on Police Scotland enforcing 20mph limit, at today's Ready for 20 seminar, a Police Inspector said PS in Fife had issued several hundred fixed penalty notices for breaking 20mph limit. He didn't give/have data for other areas, but it sounds as if Fife PS give this higher priority than Edinburgh/Lothian and Borders do/did. Still just a low proportion of likely offenders but better than nothing, and scope for Councils/us to ask for better treatment too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222202 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 23:03:34 +0000 neddie 222202@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Just watched someone go past at over 40mph right outside our front window on our 20mph road (with humps as well, but they are too flat) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222198 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 22:39:20 +0000 crowriver 222198@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"The bottom half of Leith Walk is one of the most annoying places in town to cycle"</p> <p>I know what you mean, but I actually don't find it too bad. Partly this is because motor vehicle speeds are low: the zebra and pelican crossings at regular intervals are quite effective at regulating traffic speeds. Also the surface is lovely and smooth.</p> <p>The part of Leith Walk south of Pilrig is much more intimidating. The presence of the central reservation strip and relative lack of pedestrian crossings makes it a drag racing strip for motor vehicles - when they're not stuck in long queues that is. Also the cratered surface is teeth-rattlingly poor. Double parking not as much of an issue, due to the greenways and the dual carriageway effect... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222185 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 19:42:31 +0000 Klaxon 222185@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Default 20 limits might seem minor now, but it could be really helpful in the future. Right now it would be hard to lobby for 20mph standards be applied when re-designing roads that have 30 and 40 limits. It would almost be negligent of the council to do so. This pretty much fixes a minimum road width and every other interest is left to fight for the rest.</p> <p>Now when redesigns and consultations come around, like Roseburn and it's ilk, we can ask 20mph design standards be applied and there's not much of a counter argument. The safety case was won when 20mph was agreed last year. An appropriate built environment is without question the best way to 'enforce' limits of any speed.</p> <p>This can translate to 'as if by magic' several feet becoming available for allocating to foot/cycle traffic that wasn't allowed before. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479&page=2#post-222182 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 19:07:43 +0000 rodking 222182@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>May I suggest looking forward to what can be achieved rather than look back at what has not been achieved in the past. Why not come along to the conf on Wednesday and find out what has happened in other cities and places saying 20's Plenty. </p> <p>Look it ain't a magic bullet, but it is a positive intervention that reflects developing public consensus and opinion. </p> <p>It's a new era where local and national engagement can be coupled with light touch enforcement to deliver better compliance and behavour change. Sure behavour change through engagement is a bigger call. Winning hearts and minds is always more difficult than communicating via "buttocks and spines" (eg speed bumps) but in the long run it gives far better, wider and more consistent results. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222135 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 14:27:52 +0000 PS 222135@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'll be sticking to the 20 limit - it's an incredibly relaxing speed to drive at - in my great big motor. I don't drive it that often (average of once every two or three weeks), but I'm always happy to enforce the law by example. :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222132 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 14:11:02 +0000 Ed1 222132@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I would tend to guess, that many people will still go over 20 mph, human nature etc, in the same way cannal people cycle too fast and ignore the signs to dismount etc, I ignore the ones by the tram track often. I almost never drive in Edinburgh once this year so far. Although I imagine people will still break the 20mph, may be they will go at 30mph instead of 40 mph so can only be an improvement for cycling. Just a shame no reduction in speed on the westerhailes road in to Edinburgh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222130 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 13:57:20 +0000 fimm 222130@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It is, of course, at least a statement by the council that the safety of vulnerable road users is more important that car drivers getting there as fast as possible.</p> <p>If I drove much, I'd be looking forward to sticking rigorously to the new speed limit. But I don't drive much. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222128 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 13:40:29 +0000 Charlethepar 222128@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I am negative as I think that it is actually worse when a good scheme has been put in place and does not work as it is not enforced than if no scheme had been put in place at all. The bottom half of Leith Walk is one of the most annoying places in town to cycle, because of the colourful "second parking lane". Partly, it is simply annoying that drivers flout well intentioned law. More significantly, it demonstrates an unwillingness amongst the authorities to enforce any reasonable standard of driving behaviour that takes account of other road uses, and this spills over to behaviour in other places. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222126 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 13:31:38 +0000 Roibeard 222126@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD - I'm persistently negative about policing of road traffic offences due to my experiences with the police. It's simply not a priority for them, and they appear not to consider it worthwhile in the absence of deaths or injuries. Automated policing seems to be the only hope for this or "self-policing" which just a little step above the "play nice" requests.</p> <p>@WC - I'd be surprised if you get answers to 1 and 2, as my link was to their FoI publication scheme where the paragraphs are as follows:</p> <p><em>5.7 Enforcement of 20 MPH Limits</em></p> <p><em>5.7.1 The increasing introduction of 20 mph speed limits throughout the country has identified the need to develop a policy position in relation to the force's approach to their enforcement.</em></p> <p><em>5.7.2 Existing guidance highlights that it is imperative that Local Authorities &amp; Trunk Road Operating Companies give careful consideration to the selection of sites that require the introduction of a 20 mph speed limit.</em></p> <p><em>5.7.3 The guidance also states that any lowered limit should be 'self-enforcing' and sustainable, either as a result of the current road layout, existing vehicle speed data, or through the addition of appropriate physical speed reduction.</em></p> <p><em>5.7.4 Clear evidence should therefore be available to support any proposed speed limit change and this should include the analysis of any existing issues or risks.</em></p> <p><em> 5.7.5 Information has been removed due to its content being exempt in terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, section 35(1) (a) &amp; (b) - Law Enforcement</em></p> <p><em> 5.7.6 Information has been removed due to its content being exempt in terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002, section 35(1) (a) &amp; (b) - Law Enforcement</em></p> <p>I think these final paragraphs contain the bit of interest, being the enforcement criteria, the prosecution thresholds, the enforcement deployment criteria, etc. But that's just my speculation given that it has been comprehensively redacted.</p> <p>I also suspect that they won't be able to distinguish between offences in a 20 mph or 30 mph zone without excessive work, yet it would be good to know the outcome of your FoI.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222111 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 12:23:36 +0000 gkgk 222111@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Of course, the best way to slow cars to 20 is to give half the road width over to a segregated bike lane. Done properly, it makes for a relaxing commute. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222108 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 12:16:44 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222108@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Easy way to find out the current position:</p> <p>Dear Sirs</p> <p>In August 2011 Lothian and Borders Police answered a Freedom of Information request regarding 20mph speed limits which noted that the police force did not enforce such speed limits; carried out speed checks with Traffic Support Wardens; and that no fines or other punishment were issued for drivers found breaking the 20mph limits.</p> <p>I wish to ask the following questions under the Freedom of Information Act:</p> <p>1. Is the policy of Police Scotland the same as that which was detailed by Lothian and Borders Police in 2011?</p> <p>2. With the growth of 20mph zones in Edinburgh specifically, will the Police Scotland force in Edinburgh enforce the 20mph limits in that city?</p> <p>3. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 20mph limit in Scotland in 2015?</p> <p>4. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 20mph limit in Edinburgh in 2015?</p> <p>5. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 30mph limit in Scotland in 2015?</p> <p>6. How many drivers received speeding fines, or other punishment for breaking the 30mph limit in Edinburgh in 2015? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222107 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 12:08:34 +0000 crowriver 222107@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I understand the frustration, but I can only go by experience. My experience of existing 20mph zones is that drivers "drive to the conditions" i.e. if there are speed bumps, road narrowing, lots of side junctions etc. they tend to drive more slowly. If there's a flat straight race track with no junctions and good visibility, they'll tank it regardless of the speed limit.</p> <p>I wish I could say that the School Streets pilot at my kids' primary was a great success. However, apart from some changed behaviour during the first few weeks when there was a visible police presence, the restrictions are now pretty much being ignored by the majority of those parents who prefer to drive their offspring to and from the gates. Without enforcement, it seems it just won't work. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222106 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 12:02:08 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222106@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't exist. But that they should exist <em>and</em> be enforced.</p> <p>The other flipside (as ever there is research can show all sorts of things) is that because 20mph is viewed as 'slow', combined with not being enforced, is that it further normalises law breaking, and that filters up into people then breaking the law more in 30 zones, 40 zones etc etc.</p> <p>The arguments are repeated because they're true - and therefore pressure needs to be put on to have the limits enforced. The average speed cameras are a brilliant example of 'softly, softly', versus 'you're gonna get caught', which demonstrate perfectly that drivers are capable to sticking to limits.</p> <p>(and I'm not sure where the speed gun point came from given I don't think anyone here has raised that as an 'argument' against 20 zones). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222105 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:57:18 +0000 SRD 222105@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>2011? well, 2 years ago, that's not what I was told. </p> <p>what I have seen them say is "we'll enforce them in the same way that we enforce current limits". which is not the same thing. </p> <p>i have heard people claim 'their speed guns don't work under 30/40m/hr' - which is rubbish.</p> <p>I'm sure we've all seen cars driving too fast in 30 and 20 mph zones. </p> <p>The data suggests that rates did drop in the pilot areas - if not as much as we would like. </p> <p>one point that someone - daisydaisy i think - made was that as drivers learn in areas that are almost entirely 20mph, they will become accustomed to driving at that speed. </p> <p>this is a huge and brave step that has the potential to transform our streets. </p> <p>find it immensely frustrating that you are all so persistently negative - and repeating many of the same arguments as the out and out opponents. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222101 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:48:55 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222101@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ah yes, also, official response to the original plans for 20mph zones was effectively "we support them fully, but probably won't have the resources to enforce them". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222100 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:47:04 +0000 Roibeard 222100@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD it was the published position of Lothian and Borders.</p> <p><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20130202022258/http://www.lbp.police.uk/information/freedom_of_information/disclosure_log/2011/august/20_mph_speed_limits.aspx">L&amp;B FoI request from August 2011</a></p> <p>The Police Scotland position however isn't publicly available, presumably to keep the "otherwise law abiding motorist" guessing.</p> <p><a href="http://www.scotland.police.uk/assets/pdf/151934/184779/speedingsop">Police Scotland Speeding Standard Operating Procedure</a></p> <p>I suspect it's the same as L&amp;B's previous position, but they realised that admitting it is counterproductive.</p> <p>Robert </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222097 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:45:24 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222097@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@SRD, in the days of L&amp;B Police it was an official statement, issued to the press, and on their own website, that they wouldn't enforce 20mph zones. Black and white. Horse's mouth.</p> <p>Police Scotland <em>may</em> have recanted on that, but in all of the 20mph zones in which I ride I've never once seen the police with a speed gun out, and I'm regularly passed at 30-40mph.</p> <p>Self-fulfilling maybe, but with concrete beginnings, and ongoing direct practical experience. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222094 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:34:08 +0000 SRD 222094@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I worry that I find this 'the police say they won't enforce it' line being trotted out as often by opponents (why are we wasting resources...) as by supporters (we need more resources...). </p> <p>I'm not entirely sure what the police position actually is nor that they have said this - for instance, it's not what they said to the council's transport forum when the policy was being developed, when they explicitly said that they were planning for it and investing in the appropriate equipment. </p> <p>I have seen this reported in the press by the EEN - that bastion of accurate reporting -- and repeated by many, many commentators to the extent that I worry that it is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222093 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:27:01 +0000 kaputnik 222093@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Holding up other drivers is the number one sin</em></p> <p>Indeed; you rarely see a car with magic parking lights on blocking a lane of a road when there's a perfectly good pavement / double yellows/ dropped kerb/ pedestrian crossing to plonk themselves on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222091 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:23:11 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222091@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>^^^ every word of this.</p> <p>Of course I do still drive at 20 in the 20 zones, but I'm not that fussed about having some angry muppet behind me in the car (I <em>do</em> worry about what happens if I've got that driver riled up, and then they come across a cyclist who does something they don't like).</p> <p>Needs enforcement. Doesn't need the police in the past having said they don't have the resources to enforce 20mph zones. Oh. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222087 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:12:50 +0000 crowriver 222087@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them..."</p> <p>This is the exact opposite of what will work. Drivers often behave as they do because of social pressure to not hold up the drivers behind them. This is such an overwhelming pressure it can lead to lots of bad decisions at junctions. Just recall what happens if the first car at a set of lights is a bit late moving off once the signals change, even by a second or two: BEEP! BEEP! Drivers cursing the one in front, assessing whether they can overtake, etc. </p> <p>Holding up other drivers is the number one sin, to be avoided at any cost. It's also one of the main reasons why many drivers hate cyclists: because we are holding them up by "getting in the way"...</p> <p>So what I can predict is what appears to already happen in existing 20mph zones. The drivers obeying the law will soon find a Mr. Toad behind them trying to overtake, or beeping at them for going "too slow" and holding them up. Thus those respecting the speed limit will find themselves under pressure to break it. </p> <p>That's exactly what happened on the A9 and M90 before the introduction of average speed cameras. The threat of enforcement through financial penalties has now moderated this social behaviour by appealing to drivers' self interest. Without enforcement, speed limits or indeed any restrictions will be only partially effective. See the School Streets pilot: with no enforcement, drivers just ignore the restrictions. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222074 Mon, 06 Jun 2016 10:14:53 +0000 steveo 222074@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>mgj What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them...</p> <p>Now THAT could work!</em></p> <p>Its why I do it. ;)</p> <p>(besides the legal, safety and consideration arguments) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222041 Sun, 05 Jun 2016 14:30:33 +0000 rodking 222041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>20's Coming and on Wednesday 8th Feb the first 20mph Places conference is being held in Scotland. With presentations from the City Council, Transport Scotland, Police Scotland , authorities from across the UK who have already implemented city-wide 20mph limits and wlalking and cycling advocates then this is a great conference for anyone campaigning for lower speeds. </p> <p>See the full agenda at <a href="http://www.20splenty.org/edinburgh_ready_for_20_conference" rel="nofollow">http://www.20splenty.org/edinburgh_ready_for_20_conference</a></p> <p>We also have a few heavily subsidised olaces for lower speed campaigners at just £30 for the day. SO if you have been involved then just contact me at <a href="mailto:rod.k@20splenty.org">rod.k@20splenty.org</a></p> <p>Best wishes</p> <p>Rod King </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222018 Sat, 04 Jun 2016 11:11:33 +0000 Min 222018@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>mgj <em>What we need to do is to appeal to the misanthrope deep within every driver to persuade them that driving at 20 will annoy all those behind them... </em></p> <p>Now THAT could work!</p> <p><em>Maybe worth banning HGVs and busses to help the traffic flow better!</em></p> <p>"All drivers should be banned except me"</p> <p>Say all drivers.. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-222016 Sat, 04 Jun 2016 09:35:20 +0000 algo 222016@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@edd1e_h I got that sticker from SRD I think - she may have some more. The van has POP, spokes and 20mph stickers on it. Pretty incongruous for such a vehicle. I hardly ever drive it, so it's up to Mrs Algo not to make it a driving hypocrisy. I want to also get a "Cyclists Stay Awesome" sticker. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16479#post-221980 Fri, 03 Jun 2016 16:21:46 +0000 Morningsider 221980@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I do love the fact that motorists suddenly seem concerned about air pollution, traffic flow and street clutter. Not that any of them would ever deem tor visit the city centre - they all go to Livingston, as you can't park in the city centre - all the parking spaces are taken up by feminist collectives' VW camper vans and Maseratti's given to asylum seekers by Nicola Sturgeon. </p>