http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Edinburgh councillors agree to Sunday parking charges en Wed, 08 Apr 2026 05:20:49 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-253017 Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:31:27 +0000 Ed1 253017@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Noting @ed1's piece. Most of the roads are built on land NOT owned by the roads authority, check your title deeds and you'll find that you usually own to the centreline of the road on which you are the frontage. I'm actually in the interesting position of owning bit of the pleasure gardens on the other side of the road .. and to the centre-line of the lane on the other side of the pleasure gardens. So literally I own the solim of the road outside the house.”</p> <p>This may well be the case, however if the council has control of the road and they are not legally obliged to offer a discounted rate to the owner then the argument would remain the same. The council would be subsiding residential parking by offering it at a lower rate than the market would support. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-253013 Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:05:36 +0000 kaputnik 253013@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://flic.kr/p/VC8sBK"><img src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/35195757881_047f2b0cc3.jpg"></a><a href="https://flic.kr/p/VC8sBK">If You Build It</a> by <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/">andy a</a>, on Flickr</p> <p>Here is a map (click for big) of paid-for parking in Central Edinburgh. Show it to a councillor next time they start making noises about needing more/cheaper parking. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-222805 Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:50:45 +0000 Tulyar 222805@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Noting @ed1's piece. Most of the roads are built on land NOT owned by the roads authority, check your title deeds and you'll find that you usually own to the centreline of the road on which you are the frontager. I'm actually in the interesting position of owning bit of the pleasure gardens on the other side of the road .. and to the centre-line of the lane on the other side of the pleasure gardens. So literally I own the solim of the road outside the house. </p> <p>The Council of course owns the road, but should it cease to provide a route between two public places, it could be de-listed and the land reverts to me. This position raises a few points</p> <p>There is a clear long standing detail (around 600 years IIRC) that although the Council owns the road they do not own the land and this in law cannot make any profit from use of that land, so there is a clear challenge to any council making a profit from their on-street parking charges. The law is very clear on this, and it is why any surplus from parking charges must be spent on roads and transport.</p> <p>The law also notes that the is no requirement for the council to provide roads for any purpose besides passing and repassing of traffic. Thus there is no need to provide or repair any roads which are not going to deliver a surface for moving traffic. By my reckoning, and observation of most roads after a light snowfall only about 50% of urban road space needs to be maintained for moving traffic - potentially handing back the land not required to the frontagers for garden extensions, private parking spaces, bike sheds etc.</p> <p>Glasgow University took back a stretch of a road locally when they secured ownership of all the buildings in that street, and The Herald took back the North end of Renfield Street and a few linking lanes a few years back.</p> <p>Going by recent freehold sales the going rental rate for a city centre off-street space should be at least £4000/year - probably closer to £5000/year if maintenance, lighting and security costs are added, and a comparative opportunity cost, based on the revenue per sq.m per year for other use of the space at roughly 25 sq.m per car (allowing for access as well as parking).</p> <p>In premium areas of London a 'free employee parking space' costs around £9000/year. Shoe horn in a basement or multi storey car park and the cost per space really starts to hit - a cheap modular decked car park = c.£12,000/space, but of it gets technical £24,000 can often be a likely price per space. My jaw dropper price (to date is the £2.5m for 30 extra spaces (£83,000 per space, and a weekend parking cost of I recall of £2/day)</p> <p>Given the cost of providing an employee parking space it may well be an option for many employers to give free membership of a car club, free membership of a bike hire scheme, and even a deal on a bus or rail pass, as a cheaper option per employee. Careful delivery of this employee benefit may be possible without a major tax penalty. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-222727 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:08:57 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 222727@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>My garage is full of bikes, homebrew kit, and DIY paraphernalia. In fairness it was also built in the 30s, and I've measured it up in the past for a possible classic car - it would fit a Mini, or a wee Austin A30, and at a push a Triumph Spitfire, but not much else (and not the Stag that I <em>really</em> want).</p> <p>Fortunately I've also got the drive leading up to it.</p> <p>Of course all of that will have been reflected in the price of the house, so I'm particularly put out by people having free parking ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-222725 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:02:43 +0000 LivM 222725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>We have a private garage, but it's full of bikes. Oops. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-222724 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:57:42 +0000 mgj 222724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>While I have a private garage for my own 1350kg monster, and so don't use road space to park it, I'd be concerned that I wouldn't be able to cycle anywhere if all the roads were converted into housing... Can people have a serious think about what they are suggesting, before speaking their branes (sic). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=3#post-222722 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:41:55 +0000 crowriver 222722@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Roads for Prosperity, 1989 white paper.</p> <p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_for_Prosperity" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_for_Prosperity</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222719 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:30:15 +0000 Rosie 222719@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>A Road Owning Democracy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222717 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 15:26:53 +0000 crowriver 222717@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"no one dares do anything about it"</p> <p>Aye. Because The Great Car Economy (© M. Thatcher). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222708 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:56:00 +0000 ih 222708@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Rosie Oh no. You can't do anything else, but you have a god-given right to leave your 2 tonnes of motorised metal outside. </p> <p>When cars were first invented anyone who had one also had a chauffeur and he (for it was always a he) parked it somewhere in the stable area. Then after WWII as cars gradually became democratised there were still only a few, and those owners all lived in the suburbs with a driveway and a small garage, that their car would fit inside because they weren't the enormous monsters they are now, and then in the 60s and 70s everyone had to have one, or aspire to one, and there were no longer enough driveways, and the garages weren't big enough any more, so they spilled out onto the road, and that's where they've been ever since, and no one dares do anything about it. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222707 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:40:52 +0000 Rosie 222707@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ih It's not everyone though, is it? I couldn't build a cycle storage unit and put it outside my flat, even though parking is free there. </p> <p>It is amazing though. When people went about in horse-drawn vehicles, they didn't park them on the road. It would have been blocking the King's highway. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222705 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:36:38 +0000 ih 222705@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The belief has developed over the last 50 or so years that everyone is entitled to a space of 12 sq metres on a public road. Of course there is no such right but it will be a devil of a job to disabuse people of that notion - at least in this country it will. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222704 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:31:56 +0000 Rosie 222704@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@eddie_h - my guess is that the metal box dumpers are getting very good value for their money. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222703 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:26:48 +0000 neddie 222703@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Has anyone costed this per square metre?</em></p> <p>It would be interesting to know the cost based on the retail- or office-space rent that could be achieved for the same area of land </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222701 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:20:50 +0000 PS 222701@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>not the shoes you buy PS </em></p> <p>:-D This is true. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222700 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:19:43 +0000 crowriver 222700@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Charlethepar, probably she's miffed that she won't have spare change for a coffee at Harvey Nichols while the assistant is boxing her Manolo Blahniks.</p> <p>@redmist, you're right she doesn't. Fiona Duff runs a PR consultancy. A paid liar, basically. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222696 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:02:27 +0000 Rosie 222696@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Has anyone costed this per square metre? </p> <p>So - how many parking spaces would it take to make the footprint for a dwelling? What would that be in terms of a plot of land to build a dwelling?</p> <p>I look at the parking space around Sainsbury's at Murrayfield and wonder how many apartments you could build. Enough to house a few hundred? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222695 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:58:39 +0000 gembo 222695@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>not the shoes you buy PS but I remember when the Three Barrels pub under Frederick St closed. THey wrote on their blackboard at street level</p> <p>Thanks to all our customers, especially the staff of Barratts Shoe Shop</p> <p>[this shop was on princess street near the pub, the pub staff then provided the shoe shop mission statement on the blackboard as follows:-]</p> <p>NO HOOF TOO CLOVEN</p> <p>Personally I have just been down to EBC to pick up a very toasty pair of Specialised Winter Bootees and three rhubarb and crumble TorQ gels.</p> <p>No pennies left for parking, oh wait, bikes go free </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222694 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:56:49 +0000 Ed1 222694@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In respect to the council subsiding parking the elephant in the room is residence parking.</p> <p>The council heavily subsidizes residence parking, in George street a space would costs 1000s a year. If the council scrapped residence parking (something that would be politically impossible) and then charged for all spaces on a demand management basis could raise revenue and use resources more efficiently.</p> <p>Or people could rent or buy their own space.</p> <p>If there was no residence parking discounts, then people would choose to live with either public transport to work or nearer their work or in an area further from the centre less congested areas. The free parking for residence in centre encourages higher congestion as it encourages people to live in the centre and commute by car elsewhere. It may enable better land use if was not the subsidies as people may live in the centre than work there or get the train from the centre.</p> <p> I don’t know what the Sunday prices will be but in respect to managing demand it may make more sense to have Sunday cheaper than weekdays when the roads have greater capacity free, maybe there will be few journeys to the centre, may be the some of the journeys that would have been on Sunday will be on a more busy weekday or Saturday.</p> <p>Never noticed much congestion on Sunday (but don’t go to the centre much) so would tend to guess would have possibly been better with the cheaper parking sunday, although if this caused other traffic management issues such as parking on yellow lines would guess these would be the issues to resolve. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222693 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:54:42 +0000 redmist 222693@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>the article is clearly just clickbait. I suspect she doesn't really believe a word of what she's writing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222692 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:51:51 +0000 PS 222692@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"once you have paid the ever-increasing charges there’s no money left for new shoes or a plate of tapas"</p> <p>Shoes are that cheap? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222686 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:30:29 +0000 Charlethepar 222686@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>truly cognitive dissonance in action.</p> <p>"People are being chased away from the centre of town by the price of parking. I find it hard to find a space. Paying £4 to park my £40,000 Range Rover is going to make all the difference to whether I buy a pair of shoes." </p> <p>Nuts </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222684 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:17:58 +0000 chdot 222684@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No doubt this makes *sense* to her target readers -</p> <p>"</p> <p>There is hardly anywhere to park, and if you do find a place, once you have paid the ever-increasing charges there’s no money left for new shoes or a plate of tapas. </p> <p>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222680 Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:37:54 +0000 Stickman 222680@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/fiona-duff-i-m-more-of-a-complainer-than-a-campaigner-1-4151122" rel="nofollow">http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/fiona-duff-i-m-more-of-a-complainer-than-a-campaigner-1-4151122</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222634 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 23:20:25 +0000 deckard112 222634@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>And if NCP and QPark start to charge for Sunday parking that's it, we're finished. Oh...wait. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222614 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:58:47 +0000 Charlethepar 222614@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>When it gets them cheap points and headlines. Same as any other politician.</em></p> <p>There is that, but there is something more systematic in the way Tories also object to congestion charging. Some deep belief in their entitlement as drivers overrides normal reason. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222606 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 15:15:13 +0000 Rosie 222606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'd find taking a car to Princes Street and shopping from there intolerable. Even taking a cycle down is something of a pain as you dot about shops. I don't want a fixed transport object I have to go back to or start pushing about. You get off the bus at one shop and then catch another at the other end. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222605 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 15:12:38 +0000 Rosie 222605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Just what is so special** about Edinburgh that it'll die completely if people have to pay a few quid to take their car in on a weekend?</em></p> <p>As the attendees at Murrayfield CC would tell you, Edinburgh is unlike any other city on earth. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222602 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 13:47:08 +0000 deckard112 222602@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Paying for parking by mobile doesn't allow you to extend past the maximum time permissible (although the app itself does allow). I speak from experience. Ahem. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16498&page=2#post-222601 Thu, 09 Jun 2016 13:22:21 +0000 Stickman 222601@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>When did they suddenly come out as so hostile to the market?</em></p> <p>When it gets them cheap points and headlines. Same as any other politician. </p>