http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Dodgy driver database discussion thread en Tue, 19 May 2026 07:18:37 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224329 Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:56:16 +0000 nobrakes 224329@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks @paddyirish. Looks interesting - the idea of linking into something like Strava is interesting for the reason you state, although I would prefer something that does not require membership of any third party website. You can direct link to Strava rides, can't you? I don't use it myself so don't know... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224328 Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:31:06 +0000 paddyirish 224328@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@nobrakes- sorry should be fixed now </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224327 Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:21:22 +0000 nobrakes 224327@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>paddyirish - broken link? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224324 Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:55:53 +0000 paddyirish 224324@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://closecalldatabase.com/about/">Another similar idea to work on</a></p> <p>Looks like it may be linked to Strava which may help with finding potential witnesses via flybys. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224305 Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:14:45 +0000 morepathsplease 224305@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm all for recording anything that might help a victim of injustice on the roads - and would be willing to contribute time to assist in your endeavour. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224244 Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:59:54 +0000 nobrakes 224244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's also worth saying that this will be a closed site - i.e. no comments etc other than the original description of the incident supplied by the uploader. Nothing will get through without moderation and anything offensive will be rejected out of hand. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-224243 Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:58:16 +0000 nobrakes 224243@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have decided that this is something that is worthwhile pursuing. I am going to set up a rudimentary site to gather data soon. It will be bare bones as I don't have a lot of time right now, but will be enough to feed into a slicker site further down the line.</p> <p>The sole reason and purpose of the site will be to collate data on demonstrably dangerous driving that puts other road users at risk of serious harm / death, for the single purpose of backing up prosecutions of said drivers. Therefore there will be very strict criteria on what will be accepted (it needs to be very clear and unambiguous that life was put in danger), and every entry will be reviewed before being accepted. </p> <p>I hope to come up with a list of criteria soon on what will be accepted / not accepted, and am open to input from others here.</p> <p>Please add your ideas if you're interested in helping shape this. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-223488 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:56:36 +0000 Jester 223488@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thanks for the link to Rate Driver. One to keep an eye on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-223449 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:28:06 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223449@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. It's obviously not <em>your</em> entire purpose, but I suspect that's what it would become. And if not because of heavy moderation (a good thing!) I don't think it would get too much traction, because what people really <em>want</em> to do is rant and complain and shame.</p> <p>Swedish system sounds odd if that's true. I can't conceive of something more open to abuse! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-223430 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:14:47 +0000 nobrakes 223430@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm starting to regret calling this thread what I did. It does not accurately reflect my intended system :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-223428 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:13:08 +0000 ih 223428@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>" If someone [in Sweden] cuts you up, you can go and knock on their door."</p> <p>If this is true, I can't imagine a worse 'right' for potentially dangerous unforeseen consequences. Do you have a source for this. A very quick Google didn't bring anything up.</p> <p>Ed1 I suspect the blocked plate scheme is more an anti-terrorism policy rather than to protect ex-partners </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545&page=2#post-223427 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:12:50 +0000 nobrakes 223427@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@wc <em>and a site the entire purpose of which is to store reg details in order to shame the drivers</em></p> <p>Not the purpose at all - my sole motivator is in providing additional evidence to somebody who might be involved in an accident. So you get hit by a car. You check the database, discover said car has been involved in x number of clearly dangerous incidents - supporting pressure for the police to do something about it. It may not stand up in court but it starts a movement to put social pressure on the powers that be, to say that we are not happy about our current second-rate treatment on the roads, that we are not happy about being injured or killed and nothing gets done about it.</p> <p>If I were to implement this, I would 100% want to make sure it wasn't a cesspool, hate site, anti-car site, vigilante meeting point etc etc. The meat of the conundrum for me is in figuring out if such a thing is possible, hence my posting it here to bounce it off others in the same position as myself. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223424 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:01:41 +0000 Ed1 223424@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The dvla is no longer considered secure as outsource parking companies can set up and apply for address. So in the ex-partner case if an ex-partner example was determined to gain the address that way may well be able to through private parking leak. Its why the blocked plate scheme was introduced possibly. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223422 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:55:21 +0000 unhurt 223422@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Home addresses? That would worry me a lot - the thought of some guy who takes issue with being able to memorize my number plate and then show up on my doorstep? Argh! Maybe this is more of a concern for women? (But surely that would allow people to get co-workers home addresses, addresses of people who have annoyed them in a shop, etc. etc. - basically to get the home address of almost anyone who owns a car by watching them walk to their car &amp; noting the reg? If it does work like that I can only assume they remove e.g. people with violent ex-partners etc. who would like to know where they live.) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223421 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:55:05 +0000 paddyirish 223421@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@edd1e_h</p> <p>the thought of that in this country scares the beejayzus out of me. There'd be road/rage/lynch mob type incidents all the time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223419 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:44:08 +0000 Ed1 223419@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In the uk, there are effectively 2 systems, the main one where dvla and insurance companies have access the other one where only police have access.</p> <p>Some government workers including some police peoples private cars,some forces private cars, security or people working for outsourced contactors and some official cars have their number plates blocked form the DVLA system. In theory any one can apply to have their car blocked but typically associated with government. </p> <p>The number plates only show up on the PNC. The police are not allowed to give the name and address of the person with blocked plates to insurance companies or the dvla.</p> <p>The motor insurance bureau wont pay out if you get hit by a crown vehicle or a private vehicle with blocked or supressed plates.</p> <p>My car and another was hit by someone with blocked plates and caused 1600 worth of damage to my car, Even though the police knew who he was correctly under the rules they refused to give the information to my insurance company. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223418 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:31:22 +0000 neddie 223418@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>In Sweden, there is a publicly available database that links reg plates to names and home addresses.</p> <p>If someone cuts you up, you can go and knock on their door.</p> <p>In Sweden they also have a "zero road deaths" policy.</p> <p>If you are a pedestrian or a cyclist and another pedestrian or cyclist barges in front of you, you can go and speak to them directly.</p> <p>This whole thing about "protecting the identity of bad drivers" is helping to perpetuate the bad driving itself.</p> <p>Go figure... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223417 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:28:07 +0000 condor2378 223417@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC, Noted. I should have said "some of us", and not "we". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223415 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:18:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223415@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>we overlook this when posting licence plates on our Todays Bad Driving Thread.</p> <p>Similarly in our Todays Bad Taxi Driving thread, we post licence plates there</em>"</p> <p>Not <em>all</em> 'we'.</p> <p>I'd say there's probably a difference as well between a thread within a forum with occasional plates, and a site the entire purpose of which is to store reg details in order to shame the drivers.</p> <p>Perhaps a false distinction on my part (especially considering I don't post reg details on either). I was once given a right telling off by a cyclist on YouTube for <em>not</em> putting the reg number up. My argument that I had given the police the relevant information, and that's where that information belonged, rather than on the cesspool that is YouTube cut no ice*.</p> <p>*I did originally put some reg numbers on, before I decided it wasn't something I wanted to do. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223413 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:10:59 +0000 condor2378 223413@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I like the idea. If the police won't take the situation seriously then why not look to do it ourselves?</p> <p>@WC has a valid comment on stigmatising new owners of vehicles, however we overlook this when posting licence plates on our Todays Bad Driving Thread.</p> <p>Similarly in our Todays Bad Taxi Driving thread, we post licence plates there and they can and often do have numerous drivers. Indeed hasn't it been used by a cab company previously that they couldn't identify who a bad driver was as a number of people use the cab?</p> <p>On that note though, I have posted a bad taxi encounter previously, which was then <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11478&amp;page=3#post-177992">posted again</a> by @wingpig who added it to his complaint to the commissioner (SIDENOTE: they said that the previous video (mine) had been dealt with so was closed, though I hadn't actually submitted to the commissioner, not sure if someone else complained or they just said that to get out of it).</p> <p>Anyway, I am +1 for this. If anything it will be useful collection of data. Integrate it with googlemaps a la <a href="http://www.crashmap.co.uk/">Crashmap</a> and you'd soon build up a picture of bad drivers and where they are most likely to be found. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223348 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:56:19 +0000 nobrakes 223348@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Vigilantism is not my intention. If there's a will to do this it needs to be something that is useful, factual and free of mud slinging etc. This almost certainly means it will need to be moderated. Maybe require user accounts to help control it. </p> <p>There may also be no legal grounds for using such a database in a prosecution. However, you have to start somewhere. If it moves things in the right direction it is worth doing (IMO). I feel two things very strongly:</p> <p>1) Cyclists get a bad deal in this country and the police don't provide enough backup for prosecutions (putting idiot cyclists to one side for the moment)<br /> 2) Cyclists themselves are the best means of crowdsourcing the data needed to change this via on board cameras. </p> <p>Some interesting discussion being provoked here. It will be nice to see if there's any consensus on something that could be useful. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223346 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:56:00 +0000 wingpig 223346@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><blockquote><em>"My understanding of prosecution procedure and evidence is that it doesn't matter what happened in previous incidents, it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count."</em></blockquote></p> <p>My current understanding of "evidence" (based on being in a jury last year) is that the jury is only allowed to consider as evidence that which has been 'spoken to' in the courtroom - in the case of video footage a qualified policeman had to have pointed it out and described what it appeared to show for it to be valid. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223342 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:53:09 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223342@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@ih, absolutely. I was just pointing out that it <em>is</em> possible in certain circumstances to lead such evidence, in response to your post, which was a pseudo-query... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223340 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:50:16 +0000 Min 223340@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Frankly, yes. The police, the courts and any other parts of our justice system have been shown time and time again to be heavily stacked against cyclists.</p> <p>How would you propose to get them working for us rather than against us? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223339 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:48:25 +0000 ih 223339@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Min So do you think we <em>should</em>veer towards vigilantism rather than use other methods to try and find that other solution? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223338 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:45:19 +0000 Min 223338@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But on balance I think this is veering towards vigilantism and there ought to be other ways to tackle the problem. </em></p> <p>Well there <em>ought</em> to be. But really there isn't :-/ </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223336 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:43:47 +0000 ih 223336@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC Yes, but I'm sure no self-respecting defence brief would fall for that one, when there are plenty "the sun was in my client's eyes" and similar defences available rather than rely on a nebulous "my client's a really nice careful driver." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223333 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:36:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223333@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"... <em>it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count</em>"</p> <p>Depends. If part of someone's defence is that they are a lovely person, and look at all this stuff they've done in the past to care for orphaned kittens, then the prosecution is entitled to lead character and previous actions stuff. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223332 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:34:57 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223332@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>My concern would be lots of libel threats as soon as it got remotely popular.</em>"</p> <p>Pedantically, defamation in Scotland covers both libellous and slanderous behaviour. One absolute defence is of 'truth'. So would depend on the phrasing in some instances, but if there is a video showing something, then someone says, "It felt like he was about to kill me" then there's nothing defamatory in that.</p> <p>"<em>I wonder how the guys who post stuff on youtube get on with that sort of thing?</em>"</p> <p>Because of the above. With video evidence it would be virtually impossible to prove defamation, unless the person posting went off on a tangent about what the driver allegedly gets up to at weekends with a peppa pig onesie.</p> <p>There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much concern / paranoia / misinformation goes around about what you can and can't film in public and then put online. To turn the question round slightly, if it was illegal, or massively defamatory, why are people not being prosecuted left, right and centre for it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16545#post-223327 Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:23:28 +0000 ih 223327@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Nobrakes: "The point I am thinking of is this - if there is ever a serious accident involving someone, if there is documented evidence of the same driver doing dodgy stuff previously, it may support a prosecution case."</p> <p>My understanding of prosecution procedure and evidence is that it doesn't matter what happened in previous incidents, it's only the circumstances leading up to the case in question that count. I know it's frustrating because I believe a lot of really anti-social behaviour is probably due to a relatively few people and it would be nice to "target" them in some way. But on balance I think this is veering towards vigilantism and there ought to be other ways to tackle the problem. </p>