CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020" en Mon, 18 May 2026 07:06:31 +0000 chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223620 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:36:27 +0000 chdot 223620@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " David Miller (@DavidMillerSCO) 20/06/2016, 11:12 It's been quite a journey, but I'm leaving the BBC after 26 years to become a special adviser to @ScotGovFM. <a href="http://pic.twitter.com/tuGvT3Iwv0" rel="nofollow">http://pic.twitter.com/tuGvT3Iwv0</a> " SRD on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223617 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:55:03 +0000 SRD 223617@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ from POP: <a href="http://pedalonparliament.org/a-turning-point/" rel="nofollow">http://pedalonparliament.org/a-turning-point/</a> chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223613 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:15:17 +0000 chdot 223613@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "you can see why buses might get onto to the "to do" list rather than "active travel"." Yes. A related problem is that not only is AT not seen as 'transport' enough, neither is it seen as important as a 'health' issue. It needs someone to take it seriously and not rely on an arms-length 'special interest' body and some keen campaigners. Maybe Cycling Scotland should be re-constituted as Active Travel Scotland and given more money for its expanded role(?) crowriver on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223611 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:03:11 +0000 crowriver 223611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Just hope some MPs (and MSPs) have also contacted him about 'active travel'." Indeed. What are the chances though, I wonder? Presumably the MPs/MSPs contacted him about buses as they're reacting to a palpable crisis (arguably been going on for years, but now it has reached a tipping point and services are finally being withdrawn). "Active travel" is a bit less tangibly in crisis from your average politician's point of view I suppose. Measurement relies on annual stats, no depot closures or job loses to react to, no little old ladies in villages losing their lifeline link to shops in town. If a bike shop closes, that's "just business". If some cyclists are killed/maimed in collisions with motor vehicles, there's alway the "who was to blame?" conundrum. If not "enough" people are cycling, one can always blame hills, weather, laziness, having to wear lycra/polystyrene hats. As for walking, I imagine people struggle to see that as "transport" because that usually involves a vehicle in the mind's eye of many/the majority. Sorry, bit Devil's Advocate here, but you can see why buses might get onto to the "to do" list rather than "active travel". chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223607 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:50:33 +0000 chdot 223607@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I should hope so too" Wasn't suggesting it was either or. Just hope some MPs (and MSPs) have also contacted him about 'active travel'. crowriver on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554&page=2#post-223606 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:40:54 +0000 crowriver 223606@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "He's already met MPs about local bus services." I should hope so too: bus services across Scotland in meltdown at the moment! East Lothian, Dundee facing loss of services, Glasgow more fare rises, other places I can't recall. We're lucky in Edinburgh to have a publicly owned, cheap and reliable service... chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223605 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:38:03 +0000 chdot 223605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "POP view. Cautious optimism" I think that's justified. Has SG (esp new Minister) acknowledged the existence of this report? sallyhinch on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223602 Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:21:57 +0000 sallyhinch 223602@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ POP view. Cautious optimism <a href="http://pedalonparliament.org/a-turning-point/" rel="nofollow">http://pedalonparliament.org/a-turning-point/</a> chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223511 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:44:05 +0000 chdot 223511@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Absolutely lobby your MSPs!" Been there, done that. More success with encouraging CEC. I hope PoP has arranged to meet new Minister. He's already met MPs about local bus services. sallyhinch on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223507 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:02:00 +0000 sallyhinch 223507@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Absolutely lobby your MSPs! chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223504 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 09:47:23 +0000 chdot 223504@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "This is coming from Cycling Scotland, rather than the government itself, so it's not actually policy yet." "Yet" I suppose that's what counts as optimism! I HOPE you are right. I hope someone (Minister or key Transport Scotland figure) is thinking 'well we'll see how many people object to the latest report, and if it goes OK we'll 'adopt' some of it'. Is that how Government works?? I still don't know what CS is for. (That's not the same as saying I don't see any point in it.) It's in charge of cycle training (Bikeability), but has to go along with Gov policy of delivery by volunteers. It produces advertising campaigns trying to get "behaviour change"' but presumably no longer believes these work - at least not without better infrastructure. It started an 'engineeing advice arm' which seemed to be in competition with Sustrans. Now this new CAP report almost makes it look like a pressure group. A rather well funded one, nipping the hand that feeds. Progress or diversion? "But I think it's definitely an opportunity: with a new minister on board, and this report coming from the Scottish Government's own agency telling them they need to put in significant investment, now's the time to really press home this point." Well yes. So 'we' should write to MSPs and the Minister saying 'you should read the new report from your arms-length agency and do something'. I STILL HAVEN'T READ THE REPORT I read the Executive Summary, it includes this - " The report does not cover scenarios of different transport governance or funding arrangements or local government restructuring. What is clear is that, regardless of Scottish Government decisions in those areas, national and local commitment to, and funding for, cycling needs to take into account the health, environmental, especially related to climate change, economic and social costs of failing to change how we travel. " Apart from the fact that that doesn't really make sense, it just says 'look, cycling isn't just transport, leisure or sport, it needs to be a key part of SG policy across all/most departments'. Bit like LOTS of people and groups have been saying for YEARS. IF this report makes THE different, then FABULOUS. Spokes gets 3 mentions, PoP 1 - all in the appendix. sallyhinch on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223500 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:47:50 +0000 sallyhinch 223500@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ My understanding is they can't announce anything of significance during the referendum campaign anyway... This is coming from Cycling Scotland, rather than the government itself, so it's not actually policy yet. But I think it's definitely an opportunity: with a new minister on board, and this report coming from the Scottish Government's own agency telling them they need to put in significant investment, now's the time to really press home this point. Remember too that the SNP are a minority government so this might be something worth lobbying your Green MSPs about ... SRD on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223499 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:37:46 +0000 SRD 223499@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @gibbo and everyone else Yes. I do understand that the budget is still pathetic. Do you guys really think the Svottish government is just going to randomly announce a new budget allocation to cycling, before introducing any of the necessary policy framework? My sense is that this is a necessary but insufficient step on the way. If you compare this document to the two previous - or look at the POP posts about the originals if you don't want to read them - maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from. gibbo on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223498 Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:05:40 +0000 gibbo 223498@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @SRD the attitude here is far more realistic and informed than anything they have ever published before. But there's still no action. The active travel budget is still only 1.9% of the travel budget. Someone once said, principles aren't principles until they cost you money. It costs politicians nothing to say there must be more done to promote active travel. When they take money out the budget - and space away from cars - to create properly segregated bike lanes (rather than pink parking lanes), that'll be a sign of commitment. crowriver on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223467 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:39:53 +0000 crowriver 223467@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Every Dutch person I've ever met already speaks fluent colloquial English so that ain't a problem" Yeah, but if you want to work in a permanent position you are usually required to learn the language fluently within 2-3 years... chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223466 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:22:08 +0000 chdot 223466@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Question now is will @HumzaYousaf @transcotland & @DerekMackaySNP act on it? " Quite chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223465 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:20:57 +0000 chdot 223465@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " Meaningful messages in new #CAPS report!! --> <a href="http://ow.ly/Bas5301mgyz" rel="nofollow">http://ow.ly/Bas5301mgyz</a>. They listened --> <a href="http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/snp-s-cycling-vision-is-now-impossible-say-campaigners-1-4116230" rel="nofollow">http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/snp-s-cycling-vision-is-now-impossible-say-campaigners-1-4116230</a> [2/2] That is the consultation report <a href="https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/743803806685749248" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/743803806685749248</a> Question now is will @HumzaYousaf @transcotland & @DerekMackaySNP act on it? " chdot on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223462 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:09:49 +0000 chdot 223462@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Yes, if they'd said some of this 5 years ago, we would be in a very different place now, but they didn't and we're not." Perhaps. Perhaps not. There is no more reason to believe the SG will 'act' on this report NOW than they would/might have 5 years ago. If this had been written 5 years ago, perhaps there wouldn't have been enough disquiet to cause people to create PoP. 'We' (people who ride bikes in Edinburgh) ARE better off - but it would be hard to say that it was due to CE. CEC has had the political leadership - and plenty of sustained pressure/lobbying/support. Over the last 5 years CS has done some questionable (or worse) advertising campaigns - funded (and presumably approved) by SG. Fortunately SG has also put money into Sustrans - some of which has (match) funded infrastructure produced by LAs (particularly CEC). Bottom line is - SG needs to spend more money and, if any targets are supposed to be Scotland-wide, make (most) LAs do more. IF the latest CAP helps then GREAT. There is some chance it will be used by the new Transport Minister to get more money for Active Travel. Might be easier to rebalance the existing budget, but... stiltskin on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223461 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:50:25 +0000 stiltskin 223461@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Must admit it'd be tempting except the bit about having to learn how to speak fluent Dutch within a few years of arriving... Every Dutch person I've ever met already speaks fluent colloquial English so that ain't a problem crowriver on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223460 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:13:17 +0000 crowriver 223460@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "move to Holland?" Must admit it'd be tempting except the bit about having to learn how to speak fluent Dutch within a few years of arriving... It will be interesting to see if the government meets any cycling targets by say 2030 (forget 2020), even revised or finessed ones. I'll be a few short years off retirement by then, if my luck continues to hold. Perhaps we'll have some decent European style cycling infrastructure.....or perhaps not. In the meantime I'll probably just keep on taking my life, and that of my partner and children, in my hands every time we cycle anywhere. Wilmington's Cow on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223459 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:01:49 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223459@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "so we should all just give up?? go home to a burrow somewhere and hide? move to Holland? " No SRD on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223458 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:00:07 +0000 SRD 223458@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @WC - intentional not freudian so we should all just give up?? go home to a burrow somewhere and hide? move to Holland? Yes, if they'd said some of this 5 years ago, we would be in a very different place now, but they didn't and we're not. they're saying it now because a concerted lobby has been active for the past 5 years, and things have changed. do i think they're going to come anywhere near meeting their targets? no. obviously not. do i think they actually understand how they might achieve it? yes. that's what the bloody report says. Wilmington's Cow on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223457 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:56:36 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223457@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "I think we are failing to appreciate how far we've come" No, fully appreciate that, but also appreciate how far we still have to go, and how unlikely that is to happen with lovely words and little true political will, viz. Roseburn, QBC, focus on dualling roads, third forth crossing with no walking and cycling provision, ongoing problems with spaces on trains, no cyclepath alongside the tram, no cyclepath under the bypass alongside the trainline to Tweedbank, etc etc etc Wilmington's Cow on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223456 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:54:21 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223456@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "So the CRAPS refresh today" Freudian much? ;) Wilmington's Cow on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223455 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:53:48 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223455@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Erm, SRD didn't the first CAPS, the one with targets that aren't going to be met, say similar stuff? I mean, I may be being cynical, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, but just what is it about this report, compared to any other report that said all the same stuff in different orders with little or no effect, that means it will happen this time? "Priority should be given to reducing car modal share at the same time as increasing both walking and cycling modal share" So you believe this report will make this happen? "'build and maintain high quality dedicated infrastructure" And this? "have any of you actually looked at the report?" Looks like the answer is yes. SRD on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223454 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:52:55 +0000 SRD 223454@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I'm not claiming they're going to meet any of their targets. but I think they fully realise that too. the attitude here is far more realistic and informed than anything they have ever published before. the original caps started with bloody behavioural change and tacked on some very vague points about infrastructuire - from memory mainly stuff about long-distance leisure routes. when they 'refreshed' CAPs in 2013, I said : "So the CRAPS refresh today, instead of accepting that with the current policy they will not meet any of their targets, redefines it to a 'vision' and blindly carries on with the same old failed policies." I think we are failing to appreciate how far we've come. ih on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223452 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:47:17 +0000 ih 223452@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ " have any of you actually looked at the report?" Yep. Just read it all, and the targets will change. They will have to because the existing ones won't be met. There are some good things, not least the quote about reducing the modal share of car driving and the recommendation to achieve 10% of the transport spend on cycling nationally, but those will be quietly forgotten. SRD on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223451 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:37:34 +0000 SRD 223451@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ have any of you actually looked at the report? 5 years ago we would have laughed at anyone telling us this would be written by a quasi-governmental agency: "Priority should be given to reducing car modal share at the same time as increasing both walking and cycling modal share." Look at the diagram on page 20 - top of the page 'build and maintain high quality dedicated infrastructure" how about this on page 21: "The European Comparator supports a CAPS focus on short journeys. According to the report, this is where cycling is ‘most competitive with motorised modes in terms of journey times, and which most people tend to consider achievable on bike with no more than a modest amount of physical effort and with no need to change clothes’ (p.75). This does not mean to say that other types of cycling (leisure, recreation, sport, and tourism) should not be considered within the scope of CAPS. " crowriver on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223450 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:34:07 +0000 crowriver 223450@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ @Wilmington's Cow: exactly. If it works for carbon emissions, why not cycling? Just change how you measure it, or just which measures are included in the total, or even how the totals are calculated. I'm looking forward to the SNP triumphantly announcing in a few months' time that they have met the cycling target four years early, followed by a vague statement that "much more needs to be done in the future". Then it's back to building dual carriageways! Wilmington's Cow on ""the 10% vision, as currently measured, is unlikely to be achieved by 2020"" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16554#post-223447 Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:26:12 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 223447@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "... as currently measured..." Expect the measure to be amended....