http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Tour o' the Borders 2016 en Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:14:07 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-227801 Fri, 19 Aug 2016 08:02:17 +0000 nobrakes 227801@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"LB Bikes does get a few people coming just to see how they might work - nobrakes being one in early days of adapting"</p> <p>I have adapted enough to know I will never willingly cycle another upright bike :) However I made the switch because I have chronic back pain that was becoming unbearable on an upright, and I was nearing the point where either I did something drastic or I gave up cycling entirely. The bent has more or less eliminated that problem. </p> <p>My general feel is that they are much more work on uphills, a 'bit' faster on the flat, with the advantage increasing as you start to go downhill up to the point that they become insane on the steep downhills. Overall I am already much faster than I was on an upright, but that was a hybrid and I was in constant pain, so it's not really a fair comparison. The muscle usage is so different I don't think you can make any meaningful comparison until you've trained to the same level you were at on an upright. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-227798 Fri, 19 Aug 2016 07:21:22 +0000 morepathsplease 227798@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>6:40 for me but I'm just pleased to have completed in one piece given I considered chickening out <em>before</em> the wind forecast. Highlights include coffee at the first food stop and the downhill/tailwind after Talla which lead to me staying right at the split. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226973 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:41:47 +0000 stiltskin 226973@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the reasons a sportive isn't really a race* is that you can wheelsuck your way around the route, taking advantage of other people just trying for their best time, then sprint past them at the end. In a real race nobody would tolerate such tactics because in a road race position is important, not time.<br /> I was '20th' last year, but I'm not kidding myself that it was a race. Proper road racers would leave me for dust. I am just pretending. I enjoy it nevertheless</p> <p>*(apart from the organisers saying it isn't) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226962 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:58:00 +0000 steveo 226962@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>For the price of a sportive I'd like a guy running along side with a feed bag for me to collect! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226955 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:15:07 +0000 fimm 226955@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Note that Dave says in his post that his reason for making the breakaway was because he knew he would be slower up the climbs. I understand climbing on a recumbent is more difficult - one reason being that you can't bring your whole body weight to play like you can on an upright.</p> <p>BoF didn't stop at any of the food stops - I think because he wanted a good time - he thought there would be free food at the finish and there wasn't (he ended up buying a cup-cake / muffin thing that looked totally delicious!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226949 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:43:31 +0000 LaidBack 226949@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><strong>Cyclingmollie</strong> <em>...and how much was due to the undoubted advantages of a recumbent.</em></p> <p>The thing is that I realised that going faster on my bike is a by product really but that's how it works (certainly with a lighter twin 700c type 'bent). If a recumbent sits in and wheelsucks a grouping of road bikes then that's bad and sort of pointless. But riders aren't totally cheating as in electric doping. They still use a lot of energy - distributed over the ride in a different way. As these are 'unkowns' to upright riders they are not really understood. (LB Bikes does get a few people coming just to see how they might work - nobrakes being one in early days of adapting).</p> <p>I wonder how Dave would have done on his Planet X bike? He needs to go back and do again when he gets a minute between twin duties (other 'babies' thread)! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226941 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:00:26 +0000 panyagua 226941@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes, I think we can safely assume those going for the best possible time will ignore all the feed stops - at least in events up to 100km or so. Maybe grab a banana or a few jelly beans on a 100 miler. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226932 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:45:50 +0000 redmist 226932@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>So do the lead group all just ignore the feed stops ? Never been in the lead group(s) on a sportive... I always stop - got to get my money's worth ! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226924 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:14:16 +0000 Cyclingmollie 226924@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But the problem is then that you don't know how much was down to your physical efforts (and training) and how much was due to the undoubted advantages of a recumbent. To test that you would need an event restricted to recumbents. And that is going down the same road the UCI went down - regulating what is and what isn't a race bike and what is and what isn't a race. I'd just be happy you bested a load of roadies who were probably trying very hard to get the fastest time and who had decided they were engaged in a proper race. Without the UCI regulated advantage they usually enjoy they will have received a sharp lesson in how compromised their machines are. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226918 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:58:57 +0000 Darkerside 226918@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Also worth mentioning that recumbent =/= auto-win. Particularly the High Baron, which treats brake lever movement as a suggestion to be considered rather than an actual command :) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226917 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:55:40 +0000 Darkerside 226917@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If Hoy was clearly sprinting for the finish and I managed to get in front, you can be absolutely sure I would claim to have beaten him. With "claim" extending to a serious of commemorative prints and a small bronze statue.</p> <p>If Hoy was instead sat up and chatting in midfield whilst I coughed up a lung at the front, then not so much.</p> <p>Without getting quantum on this, is it not possible for a sportive to both be a race (for those who are clearly racing) and not a race (for those who aren't)? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226914 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:49:46 +0000 LaidBack 226914@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With ToB my second go was to try and improve my first 'best time'. That was the 2013 one that <strong>Hankchief</strong> and <strong>adamthekiwi</strong> mentioned.</p> <p>(John Anderson at the sector next door to LB's old shop was the organiser and was keen to get a testing route. The rules for which sort of bikes could enter were discussed and they kindly agreed to 'not ban' recumbents. Some sportives do use UCI rules.) </p> <p>I had a place of around 300th in 2013 on short route. Was survival on a bike though. Next time I improved my time to get to 38th I think. I still slowed up to chat with big Ged and sample the food as John A was keen that the event should connect to local businesses who had been hostile to having roads closed. I then wondered if I could go non-stop and got 7th placing last year on the short route. I was 'encouraged' to do this by the increasingly more exotic bikes that people were using.</p> <p><em>Many people just want a PB and in doing so they sometimes go faster than other people. In Dave's case that just happened to be everyone else ;-)<br /> </em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226875 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:49:33 +0000 chdot 226875@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_League_of_Racing_Cyclists" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_League_of_Racing_Cyclists</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226873 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:46:39 +0000 chdot 226873@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Is a time trial a race?"</p> <p>Shhh </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226864 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:30:57 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 226864@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>If you finished ahead of them would you claim to have beaten them in a race?</em>"</p> <p>Why not? If you're considering yourself as having finished ahead of every other rider and therefore beating them, why not Obree and Hoy as well? (as it happens, I suspect many people on here (not me, but many) would actually beat Hoy - he's a sprinter, not built for endurance (he told me so once dontcha know, before he became the most successful Olympian, when I interviewed him).</p> <p>"<em> So really the competitive riders are just trying to get the best possible time for later bragging rights against their mates.</em>"</p> <p>So kinda like a mass start time trial? Is a time trial a race? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226862 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:27:30 +0000 panyagua 226862@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The other thing about sportives is that the riders generally start in waves, so unless you happen to have a mental note of the other 2000 or so riders' start times, you don't even know who you're 'beating' while you're on the road (unless you started at the back and you find yourself at the front!). So really the competitive riders are just trying to get the best possible time for later bragging rights against their mates. Yes, it is (or can be) very competitive, and is in a sense a 'retrospective race', but it's not a race in 'real time'. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226859 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:15:51 +0000 chdot 226859@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"If you finished ahead of them would you claim to have beaten them in a race?"</p> <p>YES!! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226856 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:12:30 +0000 amir 226856@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's all about perception. I remember that I once "won" an audax in a solo break. But that was because no one else was racing against me (plus a bit of luck with ferries). They were enjoying the scenery (Mull) and cake. I was the only one to beat the rain though by some margin - that's a real victory! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697&page=2#post-226851 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:03:27 +0000 Cyclingmollie 226851@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I still don't think it was a race. Say it was one of those sportives with a guest appearance by Chris Hoy or Graeme Obree. If you finished ahead of them would you claim to have beaten them in a race? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226849 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:56:24 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 226849@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Haven't they just given a meaningless disclaimer with a wink and a nod despite the knowledge that it's actually racing? Wouldn't a court say, well, you knew realistically that conditions were going to be indistinguishable from racing on the ground? (one for WC perhaps)</em>"</p> <p>A very good question. One I don't know the answer to off the top of my head, but warrants some research.</p> <p>I do suspect it wasn't just Dave who was after the fastest time for the course, so more than a few will have been treating it as a 'race'... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226847 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:51:27 +0000 Dave 226847@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>LOL:</p> <p><img src="http://cdn.mccraw.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/tescobank.png"></p> <p>Someone should probably remind Tesco that for legal reasons, it wasn't technically racing? ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226846 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:48:14 +0000 Dave 226846@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>"REMEMBER IT’S NOT A RACE! RIDE SAFELY AND TAKE IT EASY ON THE DESCENTS"</em></p> <p>I think that's the legalese I was referring to earlier.</p> <p>Wikipedia says: <em>"Some participants in a cyclosportive will ride the event like a race, with prizes awarded and considerable prestige for top place finishers, particularly in events like La Marmotte, L'Étape du Tour and the Ardechoise... <strong>In the United Kingdom, sportives are not held as races in order to avoid strict rules governing cycle races on public roads.</strong>"</em></p> <p>Although that does make me wonder... when it looks like a race, smells like a race, everyone in it is racing each other - how does that really position the organiser in legal terms? </p> <p>Haven't they just given a meaningless disclaimer with a wink and a nod despite the knowledge that it's actually racing? Wouldn't a court say, well, you knew realistically that conditions were going to be indistinguishable from racing on the ground? (one for WC perhaps) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226841 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:32:28 +0000 Dave 226841@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm with WC, I think it's funny that people would think it isn't racing. It doesn't fit the strict conditions of one particular organisation's bike races (the UCI weight limit, course regulations, restrictions on the use of team radios, all that junk) but whatever. When everyone in the group is trying to beat the other people in the group, IMO they're racing each other.</p> <p>The difference with an audax is that while there is a prize for finishing (x points depending on the length of course, badges, awards) everyone gets the points regardless of finishing order. For that reason even though there are trophies with people's names on, , I think you can make an argument that audax in general isn't racing? </p> <p>That doesn't mean that people aren't racing on individual audax rides though. Watch a video of the lead group going around Paris-Brest-Paris, sprinting through controls and so on... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226840 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:31:47 +0000 Gresham Flyer 226840@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Again from the issued riders notes (in a large font, in a box, on it's own):</p> <p>"REMEMBER IT’S NOT A RACE! RIDE SAFELY AND TAKE IT EASY ON THE DESCENTS"</p> <p>Kind of lacks ambiguity. I guess for a race - the people you "beat" have to know they're in a race with you- as per you and your sis WC.</p> <p>Still a cracking finishing time Dave </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226837 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:17:49 +0000 fimm 226837@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There's the quote about Sportives being for people who pretend they <em>are</em> racing and Audax for people who pretend they're <em>not</em> racing... (I was genuinely surprised when I did the Snow Roads to overhear people at the end discussing that a new fastest time had been set (I think - something like that) - I didn't think that sort of thing was recorded/known!) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226834 Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:13:22 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 226834@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>race <em>n</em>. a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, etc. to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.</p> <p>I don't think you need points or a trophy or cash or progression to classify something as a 'race'. My sister and I used to race each other to the end of the street. It carried nothing more than kudos of being quicker. To us it was a race.</p> <p>I think if you get any group of people together, to cover a course, where it's timed, and the results of those timings are published to show who was fastest, and people taking part are trying to be that fastest person... Well if it smells like a race, looks like a race and feels like a race... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226824 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 22:42:09 +0000 stiltskin 226824@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>They aren't really races in the sense that racing cyclists mean. It would also be pretty pointless in having a 'race' that feature recumbents and normal bikes. You can't really compare the two. However, in the sense taht a certain proprtion of the entrants are trying to do the course as fast as they can, then you could see it as featuring some elements of what racing is meant to be. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226815 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 21:18:02 +0000 Cyclingmollie 226815@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I don't think sportives are races because they lack key features of racing: teams, without them there can't be any interplay of team strategy such as chasing down breaks and leading out a team leader for primes or the win; something to race for: points, a trophy or cash and progression into stronger competition for the winners and a sense of connection with competitors at the top level who started as club riders. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226814 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 21:17:58 +0000 adamthekiwi 226814@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Thank you HankChief, but that's little help to my self-esteem, since TotB 2013 was my first sportive too! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16697#post-226793 Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:51:09 +0000 HankChief 226793@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@adam: it's a slippery slope though...</p> <p>TotB 2013 was my first ever sportive. My first time riding in a group and my longest ever ride to that point.</p> <p>Even though it was a complete wash out, I thoroughly enjoyed it and haven't looked back. It's just it's getting harder/longer to get my fix :-) </p>